What If You Do Everything Right and the Book Launch Still Goes Wrong? with A.S. King

“It really broke my heart, actually. . . . For the rest of my life, it will break my heart.” A.S. King gets honest about what happened when the publishing industry failed her book.

What happens after you edit your book?

What happens after you’ve bared the story of your heart, crafted it into an excellent novel, and presented it to the world?

What happens when you get traditionally published, when you receive awards and accolades, and when it looks like you’ve won the author career lottery?

Last month, I brought author A.S. King on the podcast to share how she revises award-winning novels—complex, intense, surrealist, mind-bending stories meant to challenge her readers to think.

But that wasn’t the end of the conversation. In fact, it wasn’t even the start.

The conversation began months earlier, when I heard the story of her book launch for her latest novel.

I won’t spoil the ending here, but I will say: it did not go how she expected.

So today, I’m bringing Amy back on the podcast to tell us her publishing story and give us a glimpse of what comes after all the writing and all the revising.

You’ll hear:

• What really happened during A.S. King’s latest book launch
• How a publisher’s big promises fell through—and what that meant for the book
• Why even revising an excellent novel doesn’t guarantee industry support
• What it feels like when the book of your heart gets treated like just another product
• How gender, genre, and power shape what gets promoted (and what doesn’t)
• What it takes to keep going when publishing knocks you off course
• And more

It’s a peek into traditional publishing—and a reality check on what the industry feels like from the inside, even for an award-winning author in her prime.

And above all, it’s a reminder of what really matters when it comes to measuring your book’s success.

Links Mentioned in the Episode:

• Share your thoughts about this conversation in the comments here
• Order a signed copy of Pick the Lock from Aaron’s Books
• Hear more about A.S. King’s book launch in this conversation on the #AmWriting podcast
• Hear how A.S. King revised Pick the Lock in this conversation on Your Next Draft

Transcript

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What happens after you edit your book? What happens after you've beared the story of your heart, crafted it into an excellent novel and presented it to the world? What happens when you get traditionally published, when you receive awards and accolades, and when it looks like you've won the Author Career Lottery? last month. I brought author as S King on the podcast to share how she revises award. Award-winning novels, complex, intense, surrealist mind bending stories meant to challenge her readers to think. But that wasn't the end of the conversation. In fact, it wasn't even the start. That conversation began months earlier when I heard the story of her book launch for her latest novel. I won't spoil the ending here, but I will say the launch did not go how she expected, so. In today's episode, I'm bringing Amy back on the podcast to tell us her publishing story and to give us a glimpse of what comes after. After the writing, the revising, the revising, the revising, and the revising. It's a peek into traditional publishing, a reality check about how navigating the industry feels to an author in the prime of her career, and a reminder of what really matters when it comes to measuring your book's success Welcome to your next draft. This episode is a bit of a departure from the typical conversations that I share on this podcast. I love editing, and so this podcast is all about revision, not writing, not publishing, not marketing, but revising excellent novels. But in today's episode, we're going beyond revision to talk about publishing. I'm sharing the second part of my conversation with Author as S King, where we talked about her experience during the publication and launch of her latest novel. Pick the Lock. can I be honest? As an independent editor and book coach, as an avid reader, as a person who cares deeply about excellent books and creative support for the authors who write them, I found Amy's experience harrowing. She's the multi award-winning author of 15 outstanding novels for middle graders, teens and adults. She's in the prime of her career. She's traditionally published and she's gathered a team of an agent editor and publishing house to support her in her career and launch her books into the world. But when Pick the Lock was released in September of 2024, her launch did not go at all according to plan. I heard her speak about that experience on the Am Writing podcast with Jenny Nash back in the fall, and I knew then that it was a conversation I really wanted to bring to your next draft. But again, this is a podcast about editing, not publishing, so I had to really ask myself why. This is an important conversation. That part was never in question, but why is it important for me to share Amy's story of running the gauntlet of publishing here? Here's where I landed and what I really don't want you to miss. Many of the writers that I work with, and many of the writers listening to this podcast are aiming for traditional publishing. You want to get picked up by an agent, sign a deal with a publisher, see the publisher's callon on the spine of your book, and find your name on the shelves of Barnes and Noble. And because that's your goal, it is easy to measure the success of your revision process by whether that happens to say that you'll know whether your revision worked or not, whether it was good enough or not, whether it's done or not, by whether you sign with an agent and get a publishing deal or not. And yes, there's a kernel of truth there. Publishing is a competitive field. Agents and publishers are looking for well-told stories and well-refined manuscripts. And a lot of the times when agents reject queries, it's because the books they're rejecting aren't yet ready for prime time, but. If you treat the industry's support and approval of you and your book as the measure of your success, you are setting yourself up for disappointment and even harm. Amy's going to talk about that more in our conversation, so I won't steal her thunder, but I want you to go into this knowing that one reason why I think this matters and why it's relevant to revision, even though we won't talk about revision hardly at all. Because landing the agent, landing the publishing deal, getting the book launch, that is not the only measure of your success in revising your novel. It's not even the most important measure of your revision success. It's a really big deal for sure, but it involves so many other factors outside of your own work revising your novel, and if things in your publishing journey don't go how you planned. I want you to know with absolute certainty and unshakeable confidence that you have created the book you want to create. You have told the story you wanted to tell, and you have told that story to the very best of your ability. One more thing I want to mention. Amy and I had a long rambling conversation for over two hours. I shared the other part of that conversation where we talked about revision in episode 82 of your next draft. You don't have to listen to that episode in order to understand this one, but we do occasionally reference it. So if it sounds like we're calling back to things that you haven't heard us talk about here, you can find the rest of that conversation in episode 82, which I've linked in the show notes. Alright, that's enough preamble. I won't keep you any longer. Let's hear from Amy.

Alice 6:23

writers have an idea of what it looks like to be traditionally published and the idea is very rosy. tell us the story of what it looked like to go from pick the lock, the manuscript that you shipped off to your agent and editor to pick the lock, the version that is now on the shelves, waiting for readers to buy it.

Amy 6:45

Okay. Um, first of all, your mileage may vary regardless, right? So you have, I have friends who have the top publicists, they have the top marketing, they have the, just because their book was picked to be the lead title, um. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's not, that doesn't have to be what is the best mean? Like, I don't even know what the best means, right? Like, it doesn't like it, it doesn't matter. Like your book could be the best book and it may never, like, it may be the, the lowest on their radar when it comes to publicity and things like that. It's also important to know that the publishing business is really hard to work in. Everyone who's working in the publishing, but, and I can't say everyone. I'm sure the higher ups and the CEOs are paid. Well, I really don't know. What I do know is that the people you're going to be working with in a publishing house work their asses off and they don't get paid enough, just like everybody else in the world working their asses off. They don't, and worse yet, there have been layoffs, there have been issues depending on the publishers, whatever. So, and, and there have been changes in the world, right? We now have social media. When I started this, when I started publishing, Kindle wasn't a thing. Think about that for a sec. So the first, and this is interesting 'cause now most of my, most of my contracts are old enough that, so quick nerdy stuff. So when you publish a paperback, right? When you get to the paperback, right? Of a, of a book. Let's say you have a hardcover than a paperback, whatever it, the, the old days, okay? Before computers and the internet, which really wasn't that long. Um, a warehouse has to hold your, your stock. They have to hold your books. So they print, let's say they do a print run of a. They have 10,000 books and they, they release those, they send them out. Some of those get returned. That gets deleted from your, you know, your, your, your sales or whatever. We're not getting into that. Um, but now we have demand. Well, here's the thing. My old contracts never had print on demand in them. So technically, if you're printing on demand, I get to get my rights back because you're not printing X amount that stays in the, that stay in the warehouse, you know, that kind of stuff. So there's all kinds of funky stuff. The point is though, I don't even know where I, why I went on that tangent. The, the point is that, um, everybody's overworked and underpaid. Uh, you just start there. Everyone is working on x number of books, every catalog, and go and look at the catalog, look at your publisher's catalog and have a look at the fact that that publicity department at, in that season has four books coming out every Tuesday. If you don't hit the window of whatever your max velocity is in that first week, you know, if you're, if you're looking for them to advertise you on their, on their Instagram page constantly, don't do that. Don't do that. They will, if you're the lead title, but you might not be the lead title next time. Things are very, they move fast in this business. You never know when you're going to be that book, and you may never be that book. That's why you gotta aim for personal goals, not goals that are outside of you. Because what is that book? You know, I have, somebody said to me recently, I've been trying to win an award for years. I'm like, oh my God, how do you do that? I don't know how to try to win an award. That's a really weird thing to do, right? Like i's like, I can see that as a track runner. I know how to, okay, just practice until you get to be the fastest person on the track. Then you can win an award. That's cool. I don't know how to do that in this business. There's, there's no way I, I would, I could tell you how to do that. But anyway, my editor's fantastic. An editor. What an editor's job is after they edit and after they work with you on the stuff that we've already talked about, an editor's job after that is to basically, you know, um, market you in-house, which means he talks to the sales department. He's obvious. Or she or they, they, I'll just say they, they've been working with the sales department, they've been working with the, you know, they've been working on your cover. They've been working with the art and design department. They, they have the, they're your connection to everywhere. They're your connection to the marketing department. They're your connection to the publicity department. And let's talk about marketing for a second. Traditional marketing. Do we have ads in the New York Times anymore? No. Do we have ads in many places? No. There's not many ads at all. And print? Who reads print? I, I don't know. So now we have social media. Well, that's free. Cool. But the assets aren't, and now we have ai. Do we wanna use ai? No, we don't. So it's sort of like, you know, there's all this stuff like then, and all these questions are gonna keep happening. All these, they're gonna be answered. Eventually it might be totally normal, like. In this, in the way that eBooks are normal now. Right. That's weird to me. Right. But it might be totally normal in only five years to have all AI covers. I hope not. I love illustrators and I love designers and I, I went to art school. I love artists. AI is really, really dangerous for that. But I mean, you also have to look at the fact that like, it, it's cheaper, right? And money, it's cheap. It's the green is king and everybody wants to save money. And so it's, it's bizarre. You're always gonna be at a publishing house that pays someone who doesn't know how to write for their memoir to be ghost ghostwritten by someone else. They're gonna pay the millions of dollars and you're gonna be getting paid $30,000 for your book that you wrote. And you literally took your heart outta your chest and rung it out on the paper and you're covered in blood and you're like, why did this guy get this? Because it's gonna pay your stuff. It's gonna pay your advance. It's worth it. And it sounds terrible and it actually isn't fair. I don't even know if it's true anymore. I've been told that so many times. I just repeated it to you. It could be utter bullshit. I don't wanna give you utter bullshit, but it still keeps happening. The line, you know, it keeps happening. So and so has written the picture book and it's, you know, sold a million copies and you're like, and they get the publicist that, you know, you may have given, you know, like you may have been in that stable for this many races and they still aren't backing you. And the fact is, it might be the fact that what you write, Amy King, is not. What the majority of people wanna read on vacation, Amy King. And so you have to understand Amy, that they're not gonna give you their top publicist because their top publicist is working with John Green right now, or working with so and so. Not to say John doesn't write absolutely beautiful novels. He does. Well, I mean, that's another story. But like, you know, like that's how it works.

Alice 13:17

I mean, we got it. I mean, I have to say for John Green specifically, I'm also huge. John Green fan is, that's another instance of ringing your heart out on the page. And then the flip side being picked for him means getting trotted out across the country to continually wr your heart out in front of constantly hundreds of thousands of people and then go home. Right. And, and

Amy 13:37

be be careful what you wish for. Exactly. And, and, and I don't think John, I mean John is, he's, he's an interesting example generally. 'cause he, he, well he also had, he had a platform, which is something most of us when writing in fiction, we didn't really have. Yep. He had incredible, and he still has it. It is incredible. I watch his videos every single day on the Instagram. I love his reels and I can't wait to read tuberculosis, which sounds like a weird thing to say, but that came out on Tuesday. Um, but, um, but you know, in the end, for me, um, for whatever reason, and I'm a very forgiving and very understanding and patient and, and I'm a, I'm a compassionate human being for whatever reason, what was told to me. That was gonna be done for my book and I'm not talking, and this, this would, everybody is nodding. And any author that would listen to the rest of this sentence is gonna nod and go, yeah, no shit. That's how it works. Right? But like, on the back of my advanced review copy, you know, it gives these, I wish I had one in front of me. It gives these things that they're gonna do for your book. Like, you know, author tour, you know, I can't even remember what the rest advertising here and social media assets and whatever it is. Right? Um, and usually the two don't, they don't really match. It doesn't really match reality, but sometimes it can. And that's nice. And in this case, you know, there was stuff promised, um, and stuff said that and like really said to me this and right up to the end, like I was even like, it was, these are the places you're gonna go. This is what you're gonna do. And um, what actually happened was that some of that was absolutely fabricated. And, you know, this was a real book in my heart. This was, this was, and I often thought of it as like my, not my last ya book. I don't think it will be my last. In fact, I know it's not. 'cause I haven't idea for that too. The last few weeks have been crazy. It's 'cause I had my birthday, solar return brain goes crazy. Um, but like, um, but it, it also was the most cathartic and most helpful book for me in my life. Mm-hmm. So I really don't care. But I do, it really broke my heart actually. And it still, and it will, it will like for the rest of my life, it will break my heart. I'm almost, look at me, I'm crying. Um, it will break my heart that someone treated it with such. It was such disregard. It's the exact same as when someone treats your child with disregard. I know this because I've been there. Um, or your heart for that matter. And, and that's weird 'cause I just literally spend an hour and plus talking about it's not precious. It's not precious. And that's the thing to them. It's a product. Yeah.

Alice (3) 16:04

Yeah.

Amy 16:05

It's a product that they have to sell. You may as well have invented a, a, I don't know, a, a a machine, a a thing, a a mug, a a mouse. A set of an ear. You know, like ear earphone case. Like, like you, you do have to emotionally Hmm. Reckon long before you hand it in with the fact that that could literally be flushed down the toilet tomorrow. But what matters is what you got out of writing it, which is why I don't want you to take me on a picnic. I want you to take me to the, if, if we're gonna go for, I'd rather take a scary walk to the center of your soul. That's what I'd like to do. Because maybe your soul and my soul will be able that during that read and Oh God, I, I feel seen and I feel inspired or something. Um, but, you know, my, my editor, once we discovered what was going on. Obviously we could regroup. He had to go to his higher ups. We had to situa, you know, we had a situation where we just had to regroup and, and try our best to do. We had to cancel more than half of the tour, or ha we should have canceled more than half the tour. Actually, we canceled about half of it. And, um, and we, and we went forward and, and since then, you know, they were like, Hey, we're gonna give you more. It was kind of an interesting thing, actually. This adds onto the, the, the episode that you linked, um, or that you will link. But, um, what was interesting about it is that I was trying, they were like, we're gonna do more for you. As, you know, this isn't the end date. That release date isn't, that's not gonna be your week now. I mean, you still have to go do these things and you're gonna go do them, but we're gonna see if we can't get you. Um, specifically, um, articles and things like that, which I, I really wanted to write. I put all of August aside to do that and I didn't get any, I got two blog posts. That was it. And, but that's the thing. I put all that time aside and then I had to get back to work. 'cause I, you know, I have to eat right and I have to feed my kid, right? And so, um, so we did get a few more things, but then you're competing with those other people whose babies are coming out, that they're being born that week and I wanna give them their space too, you know, so it's sort of like, it's such a. It, it is a, like, no matter how many times they'll say, well, we did our best afterward. Mm. It doesn't make up for the fact that that got dropped. It really doesn't. I will say that, but there's Jack, I can do about it. I can't do anything about it. All I can do is hope that people will pick up, pick the lock, we'll understand it we'll, like it, it, you know, it got an amazing audio books, you know, top 10 thing, which is great. 'cause it's funny you said the thing about the audio, but that audio is a banger. yeah, so it was, it's still, you know, it's still, I didn't, I didn't expect to get emotional during that, but it still hurts. And it, and it probably always will, and, and I don't hold a grudge, but at the same time, you know, like I do bring hometown chocolate to the, um, to the headquarters when I go up to New York City and, you know, I probably will still give that to my old publicist. I, I will, I was like, here's the thing of chocolate, like, I hope you're doing well. Um, that's about it. That's all I can do. And that's kind of who I am. But it, uh, it broke me. It really hurt me, and I've never said that part before, but it did. this business will do a number on your mental health. I've said this to enough people and when it, when it comes to people, I remember sitting outside of a, of a conference hall, um, it was a LA, I think it was in San Antonio. It might have been NCTE, the National Council of Teachers of English. If you get into Children's publishing, you'll know that. You'll go hopefully, but I'm sitting down and I was talking to two friends and they were new-ish, but not really to the business. And I just said this, this business does a number on your mental health. You need to be really strong, and that's why you need to be able to write. That's why I'm telling you to write books for the right reason. Whatever that right reason is to you. Um, and if suddenly you're like, oh God, fiction is too hard. I wanna, I wanna pivot and go to Nonfic, great. Go to nonfiction. Then whatever feels good, because it will, if you plan on staying in this and this is the way you're gonna feed yourself, it's gonna mess you up If you put too much, if, if you really do expect people to do their jobs, I hate to say that.

Alice 20:06

I mean it at, we don't

Amy 20:08

always,

Alice 20:08

at the end of the day, what happened during your book release was just unjust and wrong. And it, it's really tragic that your, the book that you created that was cathartic for you and wonderful processing for you. But, and like the reason it's a book and not a journal entry is so that it can reach readers who can also respond to it and who can also go through that experience with it. And the fact that. You are in a, a space, a structure, a process that promises a kind of support that you then did not receive is just unjust and wrong. And it's a particularly vulnerable thing to happen with art. So it's, yeah, first off, I'm just really sorry. Yeah. That, that happened

Amy 20:53

and, and I'm, I'm certainly not the first or last, in fact, this person had had a reputation of doing that. So

21:00

Oh dang.

Amy 21:02

Um, that had happened. Bef it had something similar had happened before. And so, um, and strangely enough, um, I agreed, I was told that's a long story. I won't get into that, but this was supposed to be sort of a new leaf. And so, um, sadly, I was the person, and this is not the first time in my life, I gave people many chances to do their job. Whether it was a job as a family member or a, or a friend or even a spouse, um, or just their job. And said, okay, sure. I'll believe in you. I'll believe in you. 'cause that's what I do. I believe in people. And, um, I'm not a fool. I'm 55 years old. I won't believe in this person ever again. But, and I won't, and I honestly won't believe in the publicity process again until I, unless I hear it from the, you know, from the top. But I also, I will admit, like. I don't feel like doing that many books with that publisher anymore, which is a shame 'cause my favorite editor is there and, and I'd like, I will be working with him. So I'm not sure how to reconcile that. What I've decided to do instead is pivot and go back to middle grade, work with David Levitan for a while. Go to adult, see where I end up there. Just go other places because that, that did affect me. And, and it's funny because you saying what you just said might be the first time anybody actually validated my feelings outside of my, you know, my agent and editor at the time. And again, this isn't some tragedy, this is what happens every day in publishing. I really want people to hear me say this. This happens all the time in publishing. This is how it goes. You are up against a lot of books. I don't remember how many books are published a year, but it is a lot. And that is, and then, you know, you're competing with, with, look, the outside world doesn't know, by the way, I just wanna say this, let's just say this out loud so we can get it outta that. Civilians don't know the difference between this, an Amazon published book that has never had an editor's eyes on it, a small press or an Amazon book that has had an editor's eyes on it, or a book published by, you know, they don't know that Koff has, you know, is at the top of a heap and holiday house might be somewhere in the middle or whatever. They don't know any of that. I had a woman the other day, I'm, oh, what's the name of your book? And I was like, oh, well there's a few books. It was, oh, okay. Did you, can I get it on Amazon? That's pretty much what the average person thinks. I hate to say it, but that is your average Joe. Right. And um, actually more like your average Joanne. Because you know, most readers, most readers women buy books. Yes. One of my books. Um, but um, you know, this is not uncommon. This is not some tragedy that happened to me. This is sort of what happens in the business. Now, did I deserve that? I literally was at that moment, the holder of the Gold Prince medal from the year before. Now it was a shared medal and that was one of the coolest things about that, that particular win. But that's another story. I was holding them. I'm looking at a medal right in front of me. It is sitting there. It is a gold medal. I'm holding that. And that's what they chose to do to their medal winner. That makes me wonder about the publisher as on a whole, um, but it is, but again, we go back to what does Amy King write? What is she good at? She's good at the weird stuff. Yo, that's what she's good at. And wouldn't would, should we have published that through adult? 'cause we also were coming through that new time, like I said, that has, that has pivoted itself. The actual business has pivoted ya has pivoted. So would that have been, you know, a better space for it? Maybe. And, and so, you know, there's all those questions in there and, and I'm not traditional and no one can ever make me traditional either. So I don't care. But it did, it did, it broke me in a way that I have yet I. Clearly to face because you just made me cry. Not in a bad way.

Alice 24:51

Well, I think that, um, the fact that you are multiple Prince Award winning, not to mention all of the other awards, the Prince Award just being specifically the highest award in young adult literature.

Alice (2) 25:03

Yeah.

Alice 25:04

The fact that you are multiple Prince Award-winning recently, prince Award-winning, that you've got all of this evidence to back, that the quality of your books that you're creating is fantastic. This is not a meritocracy.

Amy 25:18

If I was a man, things would be different. I will say that to the listeners. I will also say, um, that, um, I mean if I was a man with a gold prince in my hand, that would've been a different situation. You know how I know that? Have a look at them. Yeah. Have a look at what they did afterwards. Um, and that's how that is. Um,

Alice 25:40

can we go punch a wall? Can we go smash the patriarchy? I'm so mad right now. I may look calm, but I'm so mad right now.

Amy 25:46

It is what it is. It is what it is. And it's, it's, it's especially in children's literature because oh, men care about kids. It's like, um, yeah. Okay. They're also the only ones we were, I was just talking the other day and it was funny 'cause because there was a, there was a friend of mine in the room who, who would identify with us. I was like, you know, actually it's white. White guys get to be really funny in children's literature. And at some reason, like women are like, no, you have to be this or that. And poignant and sweet and all. I'm like, this isn't like, you don't make the rules. I'm funny all the time. Not only that, the idea that men are funnier than women is hilarious. 'cause women go through a lot more crap and that makes us funnier and that just is what it is. 'cause we have a dark humor. It's dark when we're with each other. That's when you see us all laughing our asses off. It's because we just told a joke that's way funnier than anything that a guy could say. But that's another story. Um, yeah, no, it, it was, it was tragic in its own way. But at the same time, like, like I said, it, it probably changed me and it probably changed my, it changed definitely the future. It changed my future. I, I don't know where I'm, where I'm going. I don't know exactly what's happening really since that happened. It, it knocked me off course. Um, other people's laziness affecting, or, or problems, whatever it is, whatever that is. Like, I work so hard. I work so hard. Like, um, I just, it was hard, but I, I'm, I'm, I don't know. It was a message. Yeah. Things happened for a reason in a way. I don't know. It's a weird thing for someone like me to say I've been to things that absolutely had no reason, but, um. For this, like I said, you know, um, it's hard to try. And here's another one for you. Like, and first of all, if people, listeners don't already know this, there's plenty of places on the internet you can find out, but the New York Times bestseller list isn't the best seller list. That's actually not a list of the books that sold the most this week. The New York Times Wish it was Wishes, it was all of us wishes. I should have been on there, um, I believe three weeks in a row in 2022. Um, and I wasn't because, um, I believe the wording was they like to keep people that people recognize the names on the line, whatever, excuse I've heard, like 12 excuses. I know so many people that didn't get there. I know people who didn't get there because of transphobia, homophobia, there's a million probably Absolutely racism, probably sexism, probably. I don't know. I have no idea. I don't know what that curated list is, but it's not a bestseller list. We also have big awards out there that are actually not as fairly, uh, adjudicated as we would think. Um, which is one of the reasons I really like those. A LA awards. Those committees work their butts off and they are. One of the things I love about the Prince Committee actually, and the new all of them, all of them, oftentimes they'll bring in translations. None of us ever heard about I and, and I love them. Oh my God. And then I'm like, I book and then I read it. I'm like, oh my God. It's one of the best books I ever read. That's why I love, like librarians when they're in charge, they're gonna find, they're gonna look top to bottom to find out what they think is the best book, which is really cool. Um, but there are some other awards out there that even though publishers pay to have their work or have their books adjudicated, um. Those books are not considered in, in that. And um, that was another thing I learned during the lifetime of pick the lock.

Alice 29:00

Okay. But just like the levels of, of, of wrongness there, I mean, when we're talking about paying to be considered for award, that's like a, that's a kind of worms aren't there, but specifically to pay, to be considered for the, the award and then to not be considered for the award.

Amy 29:15

Mm-hmm. It's a, it's a strange one. So that's why, you know, it, it is, you gotta be strong. You gotta walk in there and you gotta have the right reason. And if the right reason is I'm gonna tell the story, I want people to hear the story, even if only 10 people hear the story. This is, you know, this is how to do it. Um, you also have to come in with some skills of your own, you know? Um, and that is, that is where I, uh, I really envy people who can do TikTok. Uh, but at the same time, there's so much on TikTok, I guess. I don't know. I can't go there. I don't even understand it. I, people send me stuff, I have an account and I'm like, I get in there and my, my neighbor, she's like, she sent me like 12 videos. I'm like, I don't even know how to access these videos. But that's just 'cause I, I, I, I got all full up with tech. I, I'm just done. But, um, you know, it's, it's a wild world out there, but writing's always still worth it. And writing will never not be worth it.

Alice 30:04

Yeah. Yes.

Amy 30:05

Ever. It's a beautiful thing to do and it's a, it's a wonderful way to spend your time and your energy. So,

Alice 30:13

well, it sounds like you are coming to this. Just reflection on that publishing journey differently now than you were in November when that, or October. Really, when that last episode was recorded. Yeah. Um, yeah,

Amy 30:28

I kind of tried not to think in the last six months.

Alice 30:31

Yeah. I think that that I, I get that. That's reasonable. I understand that. Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, I am curious. Okay. I I, I'll ask the first, like the question about the past, 'cause that one's probably easier to answer. The question about the future seems like it doesn't have an answer yet, probably, but the question about the past is, um, I'm guessing that part of the re reason why you're in the traditional publishing space in general is because at the time when you were pitching those books, your original books before you'd gotten published, when you were getting started, the roots of small presses and, um, especially self-publishing, like there were fewer avenues with fewer weight, with less weight behind them to go down to be choosing from a variety of publishing routes. So I guess the question here is why did you, in, why did, why is this the journey, the publishing path that you have been on for the last, for the kind of the entirety of your, your publishing life?

Amy 31:32

I am so glad you asked me this question because after this conversation, I really hope that I can say this with as much, this is the truth for me. I have never seen another. Another way to publish, really, unless I was publishing some of the bigger genre, some of the, some of the more, um, packageable genres, right? So thriller romance, um, mystery, um, series, things like this, you know, things that, that when, when you're self-publishing, I know a good few people who make a lot of money, self-publishing, and what they do is they release two or three books a year and boom, boom, boom, because they, their, their readers want the books right away. And you don't, you know, it's a different, whole different game. It's a little bit like going from mm, basketball to hockey. It, it's, it's not quite, no, it's more like basket. Maybe it's like soccer to hockey. Um, but, but something like that. Anyway, um, for me, yeah, you're right. Traditional publishing was the only way for me to go because when I was first, you know, doing the querying and all that stuff, the only way to self-publish was Vanity Publishing, which was putting in a lot of money, which I didn't have. Um, to get a bunch of books that you'd basically drive around, put in the, in the back, in your trunk and, and probably with crappy covers, sari, but true. And, um, and you had to go to places and sell them yourself. I am not, I don't have that time. I have a, I have, you know, I had a family, I had young kids, I had, you know, all these things and I didn't have that time. But I also, so the number one reason that I publish traditionally is, is distribution. Okay. Now. When I started self pu when I started publishing, sorry, when I started traditionally publishing, we had Borders, we had books Ail, we had Barnes and Noble. We know that now Barnes and Noble, Barnes and Noble didn't buy Amy King books. Usually they didn't stock a lot of them and, and their orders. And, and, but, but in the old days, one of the measures of who got the best pub, who got the best publicity and who got the marketing and stuff, was how, who, how many copies Barnes and Noble bought. Well now in children's publishing, they don't buy hardcovers, not of middle grades and not of young adults anymore. So it's kind of interesting 'cause they're doing that for money reasons, but they're kind of making themselves the, first of all, they beat out, like Borders is gone. Like Amazon's eaten all these other, you know, box stores now. Barnes and Noble's, all new one left. And now they have become almost kind of, they've made themselves weirdly not that important when it comes to children's literature because we no longer depend on their order number to, to figure out certain stuff. Now they still do order some, you know, and again, they'll probably order the, the ones that you know, the big, you know the big ones. Right, right. Which is cool. But, um, their whole system changed when they were bought by, I guess it was Waterstones or whoever, the guy who went runs Waterstones. So because of that dis but distribution is still really important because, I'm gonna say it man, there's no more, there's no more important. Mechanism in the book business in this country than independent booksellers. Not only are they incredible human beings that are running, family owned, oftentimes bookstores, um, in random little, small towns. The reason I live in this house, in this town is because it has an independent bookstore. I moved here because I, I, these people are family to me, right? Aaron's books is family to me. If you go on my website, you can buy any of my books. I will personalize them. I will sign them, I will do whatever you want. It is just up the street. I love it. Um, but independent booksellers to me are it, they're it. And if you have a self-published book is really hard to go one place to the other and try and get them to, to stock your book. I mean, it, it's really, it's a lot of work. Um, so that is the reason I traditionally publish. And I'll always traditionally publish because I did self-publish a, uh, short story collection years ago as a, as a project just to see. I'm like, well, okay, my name's getting big. I'll put my name on this. It'll be there, marked on, on Amazon where everybody apparently buys their books. Don't please buy them from Aaron's books. No. Buy them from independent booksellers and please stop downloading them for free. You're stealing from me and it really sucks. Um, and so, um. Actually, you actually, you're stealing from my children. You're stealing their college tuitions, you're stealing their food. It really sucks. It really, really sucks that I have to have three other jobs to be able to afford to write. And then that kind of stuff happens to me. Like, seriously, like, you gotta be, sir. You gotta be kidding me. But that's why, um, and small presses, like, I, I still consider because I'm a poet, so I still consider small presses for things like poetry. Um, because they have, their distribution is specifically for what they do, right? So I have a good friend who publishes a lot of theology, a lot of really cool theology essays, a fantastic essayist. Um, he publishes through a place where they dis, you know, they distribute through, you know, or they're known for what they do. However, I've been saying to him, listen, there are some really great traditional or, you know, traditional publishing directions you could go and you wouldn't have to bust your butt this much afterward. You could be concentrating on your next book. So that's why it really is. I still think it's the most, as much as much hassle as I've just sort of described lives within it, it still is. It does its job. It does what it's supposed to do. And, uh, you know, yeah, it pays its CEOs a lot when in actual effect it's the editors and the, and the publishers inside those houses, you know, that really do the, the bulk of the work. And actually, you know, honestly, everybody in that building does a lot of work. But, um, uh, that's why. Did that answer the question? It

Alice 37:02

does. It does. It does. And I think that the, like. Galling piece of this is that ultimately the publisher has one job and the job is to distribute your books. And the fact that the, and distribution and publicity are not exactly the same, like they, they go hand in hand. Distribution being like getting the book into the store and publicity being like getting awareness around the book. So people go buy it from the store,

Amy 37:31

making sure the 40 copies you sent don't get returned to the warehouse. Yes.

Alice 37:34

Right. That does no one any good. And then scrapped.

Amy 37:37

Scrapped. It counts against me money-wise and nobody can resell it, which is also the dumbest practice. So maybe they need to modernize their practice a little bit, but

Alice 37:46

whatever. Right. Talk about like sustainability and publishing. That seems like maybe not the thing, um, right. But. The fact that the, the, the role of the publisher in your writing practice is for them to get your books on the shelves and hopefully help bring people in to sell them. And they, like, they're not going to magically sell thousands of copies because they just like wave a magic wand. But the fact that they did not do the things that were their responsibility to do in the one part of the process, that is their responsibility to manage like that.

Amy 38:20

But that is the most common story you will hear in traditional publishing. Yeah. So I don't wanna make it sound like that is special. It's not. Now, in this particular time it was particularly special, meaning I was literally shown a thing that was false. Right? That is, that's a little bit, whoa. What's happening in your brain? I don't know. But I hope you get, I hope things are okay. Um, but on a whole, what you just described is actually the typical journey through traditional publishing when it comes to those things that we might expect that aren't really what we thought they were.

Alice 38:56

Yeah,

Amy 38:57

because what you have, what we didn't talk about are the salespeople. Those salespeople go, they go, there are sales reps. They call their, they call their people, they call the stores. And so they're like, Hey, you know, you check out this book. This is a book you gotta buy this year. And this is, these are the, these are the unsung heroes of publishing and nobody even knows about them. You know, there's so many of those that I don't know about that I can't even tell you about. Like, there's so many people that make this thing work. Right? And so, you know, but what you just described, I mean, I've yet to meet an author outside of, you know, the ones that did get kind of elevated that when the stuff on the back of their arc on the back of their, you know, their advanced review copy or advanced reader copy matched what actually happened. Mm-hmm. Um, that's very rare that it would do that. So I, you know, you have to learn that earlier on, you know, the first time, first few times you're like, how come this didn't happen? Your age's like, oh, honey. Like, and then, but then, then you really learn and, and then you really realize, like I said, you know, and watching it change and morph and just watching even the human beings inside of the business, you know, um, how they're affected by their own lives. There's, there's people in there who, who have lives too, who get sick, who, you know, who I don't know. I think it's one of those things where I'm glad for my compassion that I have, but. You just brought out like 20 minutes ago or half an hour ago. You just brought out the true feelings that I shoved down since September when it all happened. 'cause when it all happened, it was like, oh, okay, okay. Action stations, you know, and then you're in action stations and then suddenly you're supposed to be doing three jobs and because you've, 'cause you had this other side set aside. Now I'm writing articles at two o'clock in the morning and I'm losing sleep and I'm, I can't do that. I've had a stroke two years ago. I have to, I have to take care of myself. You know, all these different things to make up for somebody's mistake. And she didn't even care. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think she did. I, I never, I never got anything from her and she never said that. And she was just, she seems she still works there, you know, still, it's still what it is. And so it's just sort of like, okay, no one ever copped to this. I don't understand it, but I guess here we go, you know, you just keep going. Life isn't fair and Neither's publishing, nothing's pub, nothing's fair. The only thing you can do is write the books. Yeah. That's it.

Alice 41:10

So, um, this is, this is not a trick question, I promise. We'll just see what happens when I ask this question. I'm curious. Okay. Is there anything that you would be interested in sharing with our listeners about future thoughts, publication, roots, publication, places, pub, maybe just even the books that you're publishing. When you look towards the future, what do you see?

Amy 41:32

When I look toward the future, I see me, um, using what, what I've gained from the last 15 years of publishing or more, um, is that I am still a lifelong volunteer. I never run my own nonprofit called Gracie's House. You will see me working it a lot more. Um, it is, uh, our mission is safe spaces for L-G-B-T-Q Youth. Um, I think in the political climate that we're in right now, it's more important than ever. Um, we run summer camps, we run art and expression workshops, um, things like this, and we give grants to places that do the same. Um, you will see me publishing a resistance newspaper, um, if, uh, if my neurodivergence has anything to do with it, and I think it pretty much rules me. Um, you will see me, um, doing that, but book-wise, you will see some middle grades. You will see some adult work. Um, and, you know, mostly I wanna get back to teaching. I'm about to get, you know, I'm, I'm about to write my dissertation once this book is off my desk. Um, so I'm about to, I'm mean, it's mostly written. I just have to write like the last, the end of it, the hardest part really. Um, and I'm take the next two months and really concentrate on that. Um, while I'm also taking care of my, you know, I'm a solo mom, so I've taking care of my kid, I'm taking care of my mom in a way too. Um, and, uh, so, but publishing m you're gonna see probably, um. A sh an interesting short, um, not short, but shorter, um, younger Ya from Dutton, I think, um, that I've been working on thinking it was a middle grade, but it's not. Um, and then you'll see a few middle grades, you'll see some adult work. Um, and I'm not sure after that I, I have to figure it out. I mean, I've been painting a lot. I may just give up writing for a little while and paint if I can actually make money at it. Who would know? I mean, that's another crapshoot, right? It's all a crapshoot. But for the, for the moment, I'm pretty busy. I've actually, ive left something else off. Um, I do a lot of, um, local suicide education. I'm hoping to make that more national to mental health America, um, so that people can probably, hopefully drop the stigma and stop being judgemental. Um, and more understand the fact that we are in the biggest mental health crisis that this country has ever seen. Um, not just teen mental health, everybody's mental health, but especially teen mental health. Um, but yeah, I think you'll see me doing the same stuff. I don't know, I don't think I could ever give up writing. It's just, it's like, no, it is like a drug that way. You can't, you can't give it up. And I don't, I don't do any other drugs, but this is the best one. I, I mean, I went to art school, so I, this is what I always say to people, like, this is the best buzz I ever had. Writing a book is the best buzz I ever had. And, and I, I can't not do it. Even though today I am like, ah, this is slogging through this manuscript. But it's just the time. It's, it's the particular time of the manuscript. But yeah, future, you'll see all those things for me.

Alice 44:30

Yeah. And what happens after the words get put on the page is a totally different story, but the act of putting the words on the page and figuring out what they mean and how to put them together and the way that tells the story you wanna tell and carries the meaning you wanna share, that's always, always, always valuable. That's

Amy 44:45

always the most important thing. I mean, and if that's, if I can, you know, I once had somebody say to me, Hey, I wanna talk to you and we were in a fill something, I wanna talk to you about something. I said, cool. And then she had published one book and um, I had talked to her before she'd written a, like her first book. And she's like, I'm not getting published because of insert reason here. And that reason wasn't necessarily accurate. That's how she felt. And that's cool. And I'm not gonna take that away from her, but the reason was just 'cause it was her first book and it probably didn't hit the mark. And that's okay. Um, but it's hard to let go of that first book. I mean, for me it was like, you know, I mean, I published, I published my eighth book or my ninth book, you know, so I always feel like, you know, people are like, I should publish my first book. I'm like, oh, please. But anyway, not everything's to do with me, you know? But she said, oh, we wanna talk. Okay, cool. So later in the day she's like, I'm like, Hey man, what did you wanna talk about? You know? And she's like, I need to figure out marketing ideas. I'm like, oh, well I suck at marketing and I'm not a marketer. I how to do that. And I was like, but for what? And she goes, well, for the book. And I'm like, but that book came out two years ago. And I used to always say to her when she was kind of talking about the first book, you know, like, write the next book. Don't worry about the first book. If the first book is really great and the reason that you're saying is, is the reason that you're not getting published, cool. Then it's really great. You're gonna get it published, right? It's gonna happen. You're, if they're gonna say, do you have anything else you don't hear, take this. And if they like it off they go, you know, but I said, um, you know, what do you mean for that book? And she was like, yeah, well, I'm trying to, you know, still make more money off it. I'm like, no, no. The way we make more money in this business is we write the next book. And that's the thing. And, and so, you know, always be writing the next book, but also always be somehow making it beneficial to you. Yeah. Catharsis, um, exploration, um, this, this sequel to dig that I talked about, that's gonna be some interesting exploration of some stuff that I'm really excited about. Um, I'm really excited about the one that's, you know, on the computer already, um, or started, you know. Um, so yeah, I think that's the thing. That's the main thing is that writing is really all still all about you. It really, it's not about how other people perceive you and when, and if you get big enough where people per, that's when it gets scary, like we talked about, you know? Then suddenly it's like. You know, it's like every wants a piece of you, you know, I remember meeting John Green the first time and the, the amount of people I had to peel through to just say, hi, John. Thanks for that thing you said about my book online. That's really all I wanted to say. And by the time I got to him, he was so overwhelmed, he could barely talk to me. He was like, I gotta get outta this room. And I was like, I could understand that. You know? So, you know, just remember, like, it's, it's, you do, you, you define your own, you define your career at this point. So, you know, I'm gonna try picture books too. Oh, that's another one. I got two picture books on the, on the roster for this year. Fun. Yeah. Totally fun.

Alice 47:31

Yeah. You define your own career. I think that is a fantastic point for us to bring our publishing conversation too. After all of that mess. You define your own career.

Amy 47:42

You do.

47:45

The things a publisher promises are unlikely to take place exactly as described. Yet you define your own career. You could write an excellent book, the Book of your Heart, worthy of all the awards, and still not be recognized by bestseller lists or given publicity support from your publisher. Yet the most important thing is to tell the story that you truly want to tell in the way you want to tell it. The industry will treat your book with the impersonal carelessness that they would treat any other product yet writing is always, always worth it. That's what I'm taking from this conversation. I would love to hear what you are taking from it, what stood out to you, or maybe how you feel after listening, Because I had a lot of big feelings for sure, and so did Amy, so I wouldn't be surprised if this kind of hit for you as well. I've opened up the comments on the blog post for this episode so you can share and we can chat. If you'd like to share your thoughts, go to alice sudler.com/ 84 and leave a comment. I'll be reading and replying to everyone. And if you'd like to hear more from Amy, I have two more episodes for you. First, go check out Amy's conversation with Jenny Nash on the Am Writing podcast. They recorded that episode back in October of 2024, just weeks after the pick the lock pub date. so Amy was still very much in the middle of the launch falling apart around her. You'll hear some more details about what happened, and you'll hear how her perspective has shifted in the five months between that episode and when she and I recorded our conversation. And second, go check out Amy's episode about revision here on your next draft. She's a master at revising excellence novels, and in that episode she goes behind the scenes and pick the lock and several of her other books to share specific editorial changes that she made to shape them into the stories she wanted to tell. Links to both of those episodes are in the show notes. and if you wanna support Amy and discover an excellent novel that you might not have heard of, pick up a copy of Pick the Lock. You can order it from Aaron's books, Amy's local bookstore, and she'll even sign it for you. You can find that link in the show notes as well. Above all, I hope that you boldly write the stories that are important to you. Because the most important thing is to tell the story that you truly want to tell in the way that you want to tell it. You define your own career, and writing is always, always worth it. Happy editing.