Scene Workshop: Hook Your Readers in Chapter One with Cathryn deVries

You get one shot to grab their attention. Don’t waste it with characters staring off into space.

You've put all this work into uncovering your character's internal arc. You know them SO WELL.

When you step into a scene, you're giving your absolute all to uncovering the deep meaning and purpose behind it, the profound arc of character transformation that's happening in even the smallest moments.

Yet in doing all that . . . you've lost the plot. You've crafted complex inner worlds for your characters, but all they're literally doing is staring off into space.

And you're worried that in the times when you most want to hook your readers—like your absolutely critical opening pages—you're boring them instead.

Bored readers put books down.

So what do you do? Throw in some discord and explosions to create external chaos? Cut the scene and start the story at a different point entirely?

Or is there a way to use what you know of your character's internal arc to find the perfect external action that will hook your readers and keep them turning pages?

This is exactly the challenge Cathryn deVries encountered in the first chapter of her novel. So we workshopped it together—and in this episode, you'll hear how we solved it, and how you can hook your readers, too.

Links mentioned in the episode:

• Notes to Novel with Savannah Gilbo
• Read Cathryn’s scene: alicesudlow.com/76
• Read When a Slave Falls, Cathryn’s award-winning short story
• Read Lightning Hunter, a story set in the same world as the scene we workshopped
• Find Cathryn on her website, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn

Transcript

0:00

You've put all this work into uncovering your characters, internal arc. You know them so well, when you step into a scene, you're giving your absolute all to uncovering the deep meaning and purpose behind it. The profound arc of character transformation that's happening in even the smallest moments. Yet in doing all that. You've lost the plot. You've crafted complex in our worlds for your characters, But all they're literally doing is staring off into space. And you're worried that in the times, when you most want to hook your readers, like your absolutely critical opening pages, you're boring them instead. Board readers, put books down. So, what do you do? Throw in some discord and explosions to create external chaos, cut the scene and start the story at a different point entirely. Or is there a way to use what you know of your characters, internal arc to find the perfect external action that will hook your readers and keep them turning pages? This is exactly the challenge that Cathryn DeVries encountered in the first chapter of her novel. So we workshopped it together. And in this episode, you'll hear how we solved it And how you can hook your readers to. Welcome to your next draft. I have such an exciting episode in store for you today. First though, I want to let you know about an opportunity open right now in another writing space. My friend, Savannah Gilbo is a wonderful editor book, coach and writing teacher. She and I trained together as story grid editors way back in 2017. And I just so admire everything that she's done to support writers since. Savannah's flagship course is called notes to novel. And it's designed to help you turn your idea for a novel, into a solid first draft. She's all about writing stories that work using writing processes that are efficient and effective, and she's put everything she's learned from years of training, under experts, studying story and coaching writers into this course. That means that notes to novel is the perfect place to start. If you're dreaming of writing your first novel. But it's also a really powerful resource for writers. Who've already written a book or three, But who wants to find a more efficient way to write stronger first drafts? In the course, Savannah will walk you through a proven process to develop your spark of inspiration. Into a novel idea that can support an entire draft. She'll help you create a plan for that draft. That's robust enough to keep you from getting stuck when you write yet flexible enough to allow you to explore and discover your story. And she'll give you the tools and structure. You need to start and finish writing that draft. Savannah opens the course just a couple of times a year. And if you're listening to this episode on the day that it airs right now is one of those windows. If this is piquing your interest, go to dot. Com slash notes to novel to check it out and maybe even joined the course. And yes, that is an affiliate link, Which means if you do decide to join, Savannah will kick a few dollars my way. But I am always so delighted to share Savannah stuff because I know firsthand how awesome all her materials are and how awesome she is to you. And your story will be in such good hands with her. Now let's talk about today's episode. I have wanted for years to bring guests onto this podcast. And it's happened about once in a blue moon, but in 2025, we're changing that. This is the very first in a whole lineup of guest episodes that I have for you. And I'm so excited to share it. In this episode, I'm bringing on author Cathryn deVries, one of my clients To workshop a scene of her novel together. Workshopping scenes is one of my favorite things to do. It might actually be my number one favorite thing to do as an editor. I love when a writer sends me a scene, I read it and then we get on a call to talk it through and find our way together towards the perfect edits to make it. Unputdownable. And this year, every other month, I'll be sharing those conversations right here on the podcast. So you can witness firsthand what the editing process really looks like. I believe these episodes will be great companions to the, how to content that I share in my solo episodes. In the solo episodes, I share editing theory. And then the scene workshop episodes. You'll hear me put that theory into practice. In these episodes. I want to show you the problems that I identify in a specific scene, the solutions, the writer, and I find for those problems and the journey we take to get there. I hope they scene edits, inspire you to identify similar problems and follow a similar path to find solutions in your own scenes. And I hope that as you listen to these conversations, you start to feel maybe a little less nervous and a little more excited. To share your writing with an editor to Maybe me. Writers. Tell me all the time. This is a really lovely experience, not scary at all, but invigorating and exciting and inspiring. And I hope that the more you get to witness that the more you'll feel that too. So today I'm bringing on Cathryn. She started working with me a little over a year ago in the story refinery, where we met once a week for about 10 months and edited her novel scene by scene from start to finish. And she's volunteered to be our Guinea pig for these new scene. Edit episodes. Cathryn is one part of a mother-daughter writing team. She won the 20, 23 Stuart and had a short story prize where their story, when a slave falls. The scene you'll hear us workshopping is from the first chapter of her romantic, epic fantasy trilogy. Which fans of Brandon Sanderson and Jr. Token will feel right at home in, she began writing this novel to capture the story her family was telling and her daughter Emalyn's Dungeons and dragons Homebrew campaign. She's now in the submission process And as you'll hear in our conversation, she's gotten some really helpful publisher feedback on her first chapter that prompted us to revisit her opening scene. Before I share our conversation, though. I recommend that you go read Cathryn's scene. You can get the scene by going to Alice the.com/ 76 enter your email in the form there. And you'll get the scene in your inbox. You can continue listening without reading it. But Cathryn and I have both read the scene and in our conversation, we assume that you have as well. So go to Alisando. Dot com slash 76, or find that link in the show notes and take a read. For an extra challenge, you can even put on your editor hat as you read and think about the changes you would suggest in order to make it. Unputdownable. All right. You've got the scene. You've read it through. Ready to dive in. Let's go.

Alice: 7:45

welcome, Cathryn! I'm so excited to have you here.

Cathryn: 7:50

I'm so excited to be here, Alice. This is awesome.

Alice: 7:54

We've been talking about doing this for, I think, literally years at this point, having you come on the podcast. So I'm really excited that you're making your podcast debut. It's fun. It's, it's, it's past time. It's overdue.

Cathryn: 8:06

Yes. Yeah, this is this is great.

Alice: 8:08

how are you feeling now about this scene? And this, uh, not just being on the podcast, but the scene that we are coming in to workshop now, how are you feeling about digging into it?

Cathryn: 8:19

I'm really excited because, I've just rewritten this scene recently, cut down from something that was probably about twice as long. and, it just feels so much stronger than what was there already. And I know like, you're going to work your magic and just, like, make it, just even better. you're going to pull up the highs and you're going to bring down the lows and it's the opening scene and I know it's just going to bring in readers and get them invested, so much more than I'm able to do on my own. So yeah, I'm pumped.

Alice: 8:57

Good. I'm glad. I love that. I mean, you know what you're in for. So you're not afraid of this process. So the first time that writers do this, they're usually a little nervous, but, but you know, what's coming. So, What has your journey been with this book so far? how many drafts have you done of this book, and what was your focus in each of those drafts?

Cathryn: 9:17

Okay I actually don't really know how many drafts I've done I would say at least seven My the focus of the first draft was just to get the story on the page Just to get the words out and I had no idea what I was doing so that made sense and then I kind of did things backwards Because my second draft I was trying to polish my words And I shouldn't have been trying to polish my words then But I I had no idea what I was doing so that's what I did then as I was reading through, polishing my words that's when I started noticing that story itself could be improved and so Emalyn and I were brainstorming ways to actually improve the story and get things happening in a just a made a bit more sense and had. logic behind them So we started layering in that kind of stuff and just tightening so that You know the characters weren't going back and forward between places unnecessarily like that and so then I had more readers uh then I introduced probably something that was like about a third draft And we got some more feedback about various things that we could improve and I think I I got to about the fifth draft and I had a major realisation that my antagonist was part of the climax.

Alice: 10:50

no oh

Cathryn: 10:51

It just seems so obvious now and I thought Oh my goodness I really have to do something about that So I restructured again to make sure he was in the climax. and I think it was about at that point that I took it to Kim, and then goodness he was in the climax because I think that really made it a lot easier on Kim so then uh Kim and I yeah for the first time I created a scene list um and I'd I'd heard you talk about scene lists I dreaded the idea of creating a scene list like you know I just there was there was resistance there I created my first scene list and then we created quadrants and things started to fall into place so that very much structural with Kim. then I had to redraft had to get I had to redraft according to the scene list. So I would be constantly referring to the scene list of, now what is this scene supposed to do? Let's take the existing material that I have repurpose it There a lot repurposing going on. So that draft felt good because had the baseline. I was just changing the underlying meaning so scene now contributed to the overall themes of the story and the overall through line of everyone's arcs much more cohesively. and I was halfway through that process when we working So I was simultaneously getting the book redrafted and working on the opening scenes getting Getting those scenes working applying the five commandments and and how, learning what for scenes, and just levelling up my writing astronomically I, I will say, far more than the and a half whatever years before that when I was just focusing on polishing my words. the work with you and Kim, yeah just levelled up my writing in a way that I I didn't even anticipate

Alice: 13:17

I love that. That's so exciting. That's delightful. That's what I hope for everybody is that the editing process like not only helps your single book get better, but you as a writer in all of your skills just level up. So where does this scene, since you've been through this draft multiple times, or we've been through this manuscript multiple times, where does this Um, and I hope that this specific scene revision that we're doing today fit into your larger editing process in terms of what you've already done and what's coming next for you with this story.

Cathryn: 13:48

Okay well I've actually got an offer of publication for this story now but I needed to make some Yes I do but I needed to make some revisions prior to publication So this this fits in this is a final step before publication just getting this opening scene like sharper and tighter and getting the action going faster than it previously was so that it captures the reader's investment like very you know much quicker than the previous incarnation of this scene was a lot longer and it had a different focus so Astariel's goal has changed in this scene now and it's actually much more aligned with the story so yeah that's where this I guess particular edit fits in so yeah this this scene has been reworked a number of times And I think this is now its final form

Alice: 14:53

Yeah, I laugh at that just because this is. The first scene of the novel. I mean, you have a prologue as well. So it's not the very first pages that people pick up, but it is chapter one. It is the first scene of chapter one. And that's like, notoriously the place where writers just recursively spin. I joked with a writer once that we should publish a book that was just all of the versions of chapter one that he wrote, because it would be long enough to be a book itself. So, yeah. Of course, this scene in particular has seen many revisions. Um, could you read the summary that you shared with me of the story as a whole?

Cathryn: 15:32

Okay As heir to the Elven Protectorate which has safeguarded the Harkening Woods and its surrounding villages for centuries Astariel is honour bound to obey her father Lord Ashron in all things But Astariel who possesses the unique ability to connect to the living musical threads of the Weave energetic mesh of creation from which all magic springs Dreams of leaving her cloistered existence to pursue bardic mastery Plagued by an evil he's kept secret from everyone father upends both tradition and Astariel's life by permitting her to go on one condition remains single Any intimate connection will spell the end of Astariel's training and all hope of restoring her fractured relationship with him The one thing she wants even more than mastery But when Astariel ventures south she finds it increasingly difficult to uphold her oath beginning with the moment she meets the talented chivalrous and weaver's mercy distractingly handsome Eris with whom she shares a deep and unique harmony To complicate matters the Weave's requirements are at odds with her father's for it demands she forge a connection with Eris in order to move to higher levels of mastery Through missteps heartbreak and betrayal the weave ultimately reveals the truth to Astariel A partnership rooted in love is the only thing capable of saving her ancestral home pursuing that path will require going against the one man to whom she has pledged lifelong fealty father

Alice: 17:07

Excellent. I know you've worked really hard on creating that summary as well, so well done for that.

Cathryn: 17:14

excellent

Alice: 17:15

capturing of the story. So, Now let's go ahead and dig into the scene itself. What are your Impressions of this scene right now? What feels like it's working really well, and what do you have hesitations around?

Cathryn: 17:33

Okay I like Astariel's new and more concise I don't know what the word is but her goal which was much more I don't know it wasn't it wasn't as great Anyway this is more focused and leads in better from the prologue because she's got this hesitancy of I know I have to go back home but I don't want to and so I really liked discovering new goal I think yeah I think I like that a lot also I like that I was able to bring out some of the new for her life through hinting at it in dialogue rather than actually having her internal monologue give that information I really like that another thing thing I was really proud of in constructing this scene was when we get to the crisis moment and she has to choose do I delay further going home or do I just suck it up and go she's already previous like this this was a little another little thing I noticed as I was editing the scene and I got her aid Maven to trigger off that crisis moment but she had already previously thought of the delay tactic of well maybe I could just send the others ahead and because, Cinder in the group is in a really get to the healers. He's in a bad shape. So that's that's the pressure pushing her to to go so well maybe I can just send them ahead and, and I can just stay out a little bit longer, breathe a little bit longer and then his condition worsens and then Maven actually says well maybe we can send the others ahead and then she's like uh no, like I can't do that. So I kind of liked that she'd already thought of that solution and like she was almost about to do it but then when Maven says it that's when she's like, I can't and I really liked that little aspect yeah the I'm, less confident about is the range of emotion I was able to to pull out of the scene so I know the highs are probably or the I don't know if there is that many of a high in this scene but the low could possibly could probably be lower and the tension that she feels could probably be sharper to really get readers feeling you know intense sympathetic you know reaction to her plight so that's yeah that's the thing that I was really hoping to to to do with this scene with you is just get it as sharp as it can possibly be

Alice: 20:27

Yeah, for sure. And especially because it's the opening scene, like, it's the hook to the story as well. We want to pull people in really quickly, so this is the time where it's like, don't save your best work for something later. Put it all up front. This is up front best work. Get the readers in so they're bought in to keep going. So getting those highs really high and the lows really low and feeling that movement and momentum and intrigue early is really important. I love what you're saying about, like everything you're noting about the goal and the way of integrating information through dialogue as opposed to internal monologue. Like, I think that's, I loved seeing that happen. I can feel the difference. I think where I want to dig in, I think that ooh I'm I have multiple directions right now that I could go and I'm trying to pick which one let's start off with. Let's start off with talking about that goal. Like, tell me more about that goal, what her goal is, and why that feels really aligned with the story. And, do you remember what the goal was of the previous scene? Because I remember it being different, but I don't remember what it was. It's been a while since I read the scene.

Cathryn: 21:40

I can't actually off the top of my head but I knew it was fuzzier

Alice: 21:44

Mm. Mm hmm.

Cathryn: 21:45

and it and it didn't it didn't have the it didn't have the double barreled nature of the new story grid setup of I want this without this

Alice: 21:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Cathryn: 21:57

and Yeah. that's what makes this one that's one of the reasons this one is a lot sharper yeah it was just a it was more to do with her wanting to do her wanting bardic mastery and and wanting her father to to support that journey I think that was what the previous goal hmm

Alice: 22:15

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That tracks. Yeah. That tracks. so tell me about the goal now. Like, what is this goal and what makes it feel really aligned?

Cathryn: 22:26

Okay so her goal now is to delay going back home without either endangering Cinder or ticking off her father

Alice: 22:40

Okay. Excellent. And why does that feel aligned with the story?

Cathryn: 22:46

Well because it it really captures Astariel's character I think of her being bigger too big for the cage that she's been put in and she's just come up like she's she's just had her coming of age ceremony the day before and that's like a big event in an elf's life and she got to choose her new name and like define herself you know in this new way you know getting into adult way but she still feels like she's restricted And difference between yesterday and today is you know that you know yesterday she was still a child and today she is an adult but she's not being treated like an adult and so Yesterday she could have gone home straight away not really thought about it just like yes I've got to obey dad and fine But today it feels different It's like I shouldn't have to do this And there's ten there's thattension of tension yeah I'm I'm I'm too big I'm too big for this for this cage that I've been put in and yet the a very caring character and she cares deeply what other people think and also their their general well being So you know she's got this injured member of her party

Alice: 24:31

Okay.

Cathryn: 24:45

she doesn't want to she doesn't want him to be annoyed now at this moment so that like know might throw another spanner in the works or something know, she's got this feeling in the of her head that you know maybe like, if she if she annoys him that he's gonna somehow postpone that again so I think this particular goal has a lot more tension to it, because she really is pulled in two different directions One her caring side the other her real commitment to growth side

Alice: 25:25

Yeah, okay. There's so much good stuff in everything you just said. Like that's So rich and good, useful fuel that I want to really highlight in this scene. I think, so some things I want to highlight of what you just said are the fact that today is different than yesterday. That the tensions she's feeling today are heightened from what they were yesterday. I think that that's implied in this scene, and I think you've got some specific pieces of information that are really, like, directly pointing at it, especially if. We understand the context of an Elven coming of age ceremony, but I don't think that the full, like, weight of that is super clear on the page. Like, we know the context, we know that she just had her coming of age ceremony, but I didn't really understand or like fully internalize until you said it just now, this idea that this whole thing could have happened 24 hours ago, and she would be feeling very differently about it, because The transformation that happened for her when she crossed this coming of age threshold is making her look around her life differently. I mean, I think about when I turned 30 and looked around my life and I was like, Alright, it's time to like do the things and no longer like plan to do the things. It's do the things time. Like that's for her. It's do the things time. Uh, it's very different from yesterday. And so I think that that is something that we can heighten and clarify in here. And I think that it, I think that that, for me, feels really key in terms of why this story is starting here, and why when, why it is that when you get that feedback from the publisher saying start the story faster, That in this context doesn't mean like start this at a later scene. It means that this is the moment that we need to start the story at. The reader just really needs to understand like why the story picked up right now. And it picked up right now because yesterday we had our coming of age ceremony and today we can't wait anymore. Like today we've got to move. So I want to get some of that energy more strongly in the scene. Okay.

Cathryn: 27:37

Okay

Alice: 27:37

I know, I know my destination here but I'm gonna take us on the coaching journey to get there. Tell me what the the elements of story are that you see in this scene. Like what do you see as the inciting incident,

Cathryn: 27:51

I've picked the inciting incident as being the first line Estara reined her horse as the northern side of it all came into view So the Inciting incident, is she sees home Okay and then we have A few progressive complications, of So the first one is like Rinfeld asks her why she stopped so that kind of forces her to give some kind of explanation and she chooses to lie which is a, pattern Astarial exhibits through the whole first half of the novel that you know, when she's feeling internal turmoil she just tries to brush it aside

Alice: 28:35

What a reasonable and understandable reaction. Let's just not feel bad.

Cathryn: 28:43

yes and then the next progressive complication I've marked as Maven her aid kind of tells her you know we we should get going you know but yes Astaroth still is not quite yet, until we get to the turning point where Sindar the archer who got injured Got bitten by bitten by spider He throws up, and like you know just looks pretty awful and then Maven states the obvious again that we really need to get him home He's going to become too weak to ride so that forces Astariel into the crisis, which is do we a bit longer or do we send our home ASAP yeah So tarrying has the advantages of just remaining free a bit more out in the wilds and

Alice: 29:46

And

Cathryn: 29:54

understand how of a cloistered existence that she's, she's had to live but like her father is going to accept a in their return if he thinks that she's disobeyed him then he's angry and she really wants him to happy at this point in time but the sooner she gets home the sooner she is under scrutiny again So that's why she's still feeling this. know I don't I I just really don't want to go home Yeah Okay so Climax she grits her teeth

Alice: 30:33

gets moving Okay.

Cathryn: 30:35

the caring and people pleasing side wins then the resolution is when she does get home and she brings the pheasants that they hunted to the kitchens she that the Master Bard has personally arrived at the Ciderdale and there's they're going to be preparing a feast that night for him And so she just gets super excited It's like it's I'm, I'm I came home now because, know, now get to able to break the news to and see his reaction because his reaction going to tell her a lot about you know, how he's, how he's feeling about this, and she she wants to see it. so being the one the news, little bit of a unexpected bonus, I guess, her, and then she gets quite like excited but anxious at the same time Like know, he going to say yeah So that's what I picked out as the commandments in this scene The resolution is almost a mini scene in and of itself it its own, clear five commandments within it. but I wasn't sure to treat it as a completely separate scene or not

Alice: 31:56

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and all of this analysis makes sense. I could definitely, see the crisis space in the scene. and I did not pre analyze this because I knew you were going to come in with the analysis. And so I knew you were going to be able to tell me. But, like, that all tracks with what I felt intuitively going through the scene. Okay, here's my big thought about this scene. I think And keep in mind, we're starting from the place, and I agree with you, where the goal directedness of this feels very aligned, like it feels like it's starting in the right place with goal directedness. The, the challenge that I see in this scene right now is that if we look at this from the perspective of the external action happening in this scene. We get a star real sitting on her horse with Sindar and her team next to her looking at the Citadel and then walking into the Citadel.

Cathryn: 33:01

External action has always been my weakness

Alice: 33:08

So I think we can ramp it up. I think we can. I think we can create. External context that's going to carry these internal arcs, um, this internal arc in a way that is also like gripping and hooky and exciting for the reader. So, um, let's back up to, okay, so we know that. The, the kind of concept we're going around with here, the purpose of this scene, the why behind this scene is this idea that Astariel doesn't want to go home, that going home feels like entrapping herself in her, her continued prison that she's been in all of her life, or for most of her life, save for those few early years when she had a good relationship with her father, but now it feels really oppressive and like this prison, which was something that she could survive within until yesterday when she passed her coming of age, and now it just feels like not only a. prison, but almost an insult that she's like, not, she's been kind of waiting for this permission to go live her life and develop herself and grow and explore. And she keeps not getting that permission. And today it rankles 10 times more heavily than it did yesterday. Does that all sound true?

Cathryn: 34:30

Yes

Alice: 34:31

perfect. So with that in mind, Why did she leave the Citadel? Like, why isn't she in the Citadel right now? What happened before this scene began?

Cathryn: 34:42

Oh okay she regularly goes out on hunting trips that's a a normal thing regular thing so this you know she's just arranged to go out this morning to bring in some food because she likes to get out much as she can especially lately she likes developing her skills practicing her skills so this is a this is a context that she has gained permission to to do it in as long as she's got an elite escort with her

Alice: 35:15

Excellent. So, this is a hunting trip. And it's a normal thing that she typically does, and it feels like a place where she can really, like, express herself, be herself, be larger than she is within the Citadel.

Cathryn: 35:28

Yes probably should say something unusual happened on this hunting trip because Sinday got bitten by a spider which is unusual and she was the one who noticed that he was missing too long and went after him and killed the spider which is something that she's never done before she's practiced archery obviously but she's never had that opportunity to actually save someone's life So she's just saved someone's life And, and that also is playing into this feeling of I'm bigger so it was just a regular hundred meter but it turned into something more

Alice: 36:07

yeah. So I'm gonna call that out too. So she, yesterday was her coming of age, and today she feels different. It's time to do the thing instead of Plan to do the thing and she just saved someone's life, which is huge. Like that's a very I mean it is a signal of her strength and her like Power and her, her, like, worthiness to be given more responsibility and thought more highly of than she is in this space. So, those right there, we've got two things that really already heighten this scene. So, I think, that, In terms of this arc that happens here, where she's, away from the Citadel, and then has to, force herself back into the Citadel, that feels Like those are good bones. What I want to do is stretch that out over. Can you bring in more of the action that happened beforehand into this so that all of this processing is happening on top of that action as opposed to happening on top of her looking at the citadel and going home. How does that sound?

Cathryn: 37:22

Mmm it sounds good I just don't know how to do it Yeah Haha

Alice: 37:28

Excellent. So let's talk about it. So I think just to kind of contextualize that idea more, um, What that'll do is not only set up her emotional trajectory, but it'll also set up the tone for this story, which is a Life or death stakes story. This is their their major action components to the story. And so setting up that The, okay, here's, here's the, the line of inquiry I want to play through to see if it works. What happens if

Cathryn: 38:04

Um and then uh

Alice: 38:06

pull the inciting incident back from the point where she is, where she sees the northern citadel? Can we give it a more punchy inciting incident than seeing the citadel? Can we put the inciting incident at, like, the point when she leaves to go on this hunting trip or the point when she, is out there with her, her team, like, something that's, like, the inciting incident, okay, so, I'm thinking, if I look at the inciting incident, the turning point, and the, The climax and the resolution all together is kind of like a little

Cathryn: 38:46

Um

Alice: 38:48

that's not a triangle. If I look at all of these pieces as really interconnected things, the inciting incident here doesn't quite feel aligned with the resolution that um, I have, I have like a clear picture in my mind, and I'm trying to figure out how to put that into words here.

Cathryn: 39:15

Um,

Alice: 39:16

Um I'm not scared of this. I have a lot of clarity right here. It's here, Cathryn. It's right here. It's so clear. There's such a great scene in my mind. Um, I think that the idea of her wanting out and having to come back in, that's so potent. And So, can you give us an inciting incident at the beginning that is her going out, that's establishing that I want out, I want to be out there, and she's getting this, like, taste of out there, and yes, it's the same thing in terms of it's a hunting trip that she normally does, but the only way she's going to get out there is that it's this hunting trip, she wants it to be bigger, it's It can't be bigger, but she's going to eat up every moment of it, of it being out there, and then the turn is the thing that's going to pull her back in. So the turn is, I think that the turning point that I see making sense right now is probably still at point where it becomes very clear that Sindar has to go home. Like, that's a requirement that we return home, and what that is. I think that that could be the point where, Sindar is, has just been bitten and he's on the ground. Like, like, that's a much more intense moment than the moment when he's sitting on a horse. His health is slowly trickling away and vomiting. Like, there's, like, if he's, if he's, like, we're just seeing the monster. And here's what's also galling about this, to pull in this other context about the fact that she has a gift that she wants to develop. If her gift were developed, she wouldn't have to go home, like, this pole wouldn't be here because she'd be able to just heal him, and she's, like, the fact that she can't heal him is a part of the reason She needs to get out and it is also the reason that is requiring her to go home now, which is just such a, uh, uh, a frustrating galling space to be in and. I think that you can add more attention if she like, like her time out in hunting gets cut off early, like she had an expectation. Okay, so picture this. She has an expectation coming into this day where she's like, I feel differently on Wednesday than I did on Tuesday, because on Tuesday was not a normal Tuesday. I had my coming of age ceremony. So I'm walking into Wednesday feeling like this adult authority that I Haven't had before and then question to explore what are the signals that that's not being respected not only that people are forgetting her name, but what impact is this having on her movement ability like what impact is it having on her ability to do the things she wants to do it's it's. discouraging if somebody forgets your name, but it doesn't stop you from having agency. There is more than just having her name misspoken that's happening to her right now. So if you can set her up with like being told no or something at the beginning, and she's like, the space that I've got is this hunting trip. I'm going to get six hours of relief from people who can't respect me as an adult who has.

Cathryn: 42:52

be used to

Alice: 42:53

Choices and direction and a place that I need to go that they're stopping me from getting to and we're going to get to that in a minute but like right now I just like the problem that they don't even respect me as an adult is the problem so I'm going to get out of here for 6 hours and then she gets out of here for 4 hours and 4 hours in this spider comes down and it bites Sindar and it's like On the one hand, it's terrible, and it's terrifying, and it's like, man, they are right about going out. Going out is dangerous. Going out has risks. But, like, I am not going to back down from this, because this is the thing that I have always wanted to do. Like, I want to, I know my role is to be the kind of person who can handle these risks. I can do it. I can kill this spider. I can start healing Sindar. I can't finish healing Sindar. Like, I've hit against my limitations and if I could, if I could be the full person that I want to be, if people had respected me in the past and prepared me for this, I wouldn't even be in the position of needing to go back now. But now, One, I have to go back because we're in, we have a person who's actively in peril and two, I'm losing two of my four hours of my six hours of freedom. I now have only four hours of freedom and I had with banking on six hours to keep me sane today and to go back to the Citadel, not only Knowing that I have changed as a mature person, and nobody in there has changed in the way they're going to treat me, but also to not get the relief that I was planning to get today, but, and knowing that I could get that relief if somebody had only treated me with the level of respect that I ought to have received years ago, and yet, I have to go back, like, I don't, to not go back right now is so misaligned with who I am. There's no not going back, but it's like, I'm dying a little bit inside to have to turn around, but he's going to literally die if we don't turn around. So, that's, that's the picture I see of ratcheting up these it's like in this moment of getting freedom and having it pulled away. Cause where we're starting in this scene right now is we're seeing the tail end of this freedom, but we're not seeing what it feels like. And we're getting told about the fact that she's not receiving the respect that she deserves. We're not really seeing what that looks like or what she's railing against. And I think that the goal really did start before The Citadel came into view. It was a lot less conscious and that's another thing that you can play with is how much of this is conscious knowledge for her at the beginning of the scene when she sets out versus when the turning point happens and she has to go back like she, she's stuffing things, you know, she's stuffing it down so she might not be waking up thinking, I am going to deal with the injustices around me by getting six hours of outdoor time, and that will be how I process my emotions. No, she's like, she's going on a trajectory, and these little barbs are coming at her, and she's just like, flinging them off while she's going on this trajectory, until she can't fling them off anymore, and now she's like, Dang it! I have to face the fact that I have to go back, which is telling me how much I don't want to go back. Like, he is vomiting because of poison, and I am thinking about the prospect of going back, and it's making me physically sick in a way that it didn't yesterday. So, that's the picture that I have in my head of what this scene might be. How does that sound?

Cathryn: 46:23

I'm starting yeah starting to get my own picture solidified from your words of how I might rewrite this so this is exciting

Alice: 46:33

Yeah, good. Okay, good. Because I think that everything, like, I just want to keep emphasizing, I think everything you're saying about the goal of this scene, the direction of this scene, like, that being very aligned with the story as a whole, that feels really true for me. Like, I agree with that. It's just a question of can you put that on top of the external action that will carry that in a way that's exciting to the reader as well. the next thing I want to show you Talk about is the resolution because the resolution currently in this scene and I'm looking at the resolution as that time when she learns that Master Bard Eldrin is here and that, that he's, he's come, we know, to negotiate with her father to take her down to the southern citadel so she can actually train as a bard. Which is the thing that she's been raring to do this whole time that should have happened for her way earlier, and it's the reason why she should be able to heal. Like, we know that that's what this is, this resolution is doing. It, right now, doesn't feel aligned with that inciting incident because it's not yet clear that this is the thing that she's been held back from. I mean, it is a little bit, but it it doesn't feel like this is clearly attached to that original goal of the out versus in thing. Cause the original goal, if I look at the pages right now, that original goal feels like go home to heal Sindar or stay out and. Enjoy the sunshine, basically like stay away from the Citadel and it's not attached to This broader, like, leave the Citadel entirely, like, go home to heal Sindar versus stay outside doesn't feel attached to go home to heal Sindar versus go down to the Southern Citadel. You know what I mean? Like, those are, that's a step beyond that we know is connected but the reader doesn't yet know is connected. does that make sense? It's, it's again, one of the things that feels clear in my mind and I'm not sure I'm saying it clearly out loud.

Cathryn: 48:38

Yeah Yeah That makes sense

Alice: 48:40

Okay, cool. So I think that the thing to do, I think this is, probably when I think about that feedback that you got from the publisher, this feels to me like it's important to get into the scene now, because this is part of moving the story quickly along. I think that what that means then is, it means getting clear on the goal in the inciting incident, So the things that we want to do are to get really clear at the outset that her goal is To it's it's an out versus in like that part feels really clear to me. Go out versus stay in. I want to come back to the with versus without side of that goal in a second But i'm going to table that for a moment. We also want to establish that. The reason why This is so frustrating is because Maybe it's that she honestly shouldn't be here, like she shouldn't have to be this out versus in today, this shouldn't be a thing, she should be at the Southern Citadel, and so I think like bringing that goal mindedness of like, get to the Southern Citadel

Cathryn: 49:55

Yeah yeah

Alice: 50:00

then tie in at the end. Oh, there's hope of actually going. Does that sound aligned at all?

Cathryn: 50:08

Yeah

Alice: 50:09

Because I think that What is she thinking about? What is she feeling on the morning when she wakes up the day after her, coming of age ceremony?

Cathryn: 50:25

think she's she's feeling a sense of newness like today is different even though she's going out to do the same kind of thing that she has been doing she wakes up and she thinks she does think to herself I'm a Starial today I'm not Brynn anymore and I think she believes that things are going to start happening now finally and then when she thinks that I'll be able to do things now then flips over to the, but I should have been able to do them ages ago so I think it's a discontent on the one hand there's that new feeling on the other hand it's like a this feel so new this should feel like more of a release than it does Something like that I'm not sure if my words are making sense

Alice: 51:24

No, that sounds great. That's all really good. so, I think that one of the questions, it's like an open ended question here, which we might lock down really clearly here, or we might still leave open ended, is the inciting incident. Like, where does the scene start? Does the scene start when she wakes up? I don't think that it starts when she wakes up. Books that start when the character wakes up are, like, that's

Cathryn: 51:59

No

Alice: 52:00

the number one way to start a story.

Cathryn: 52:02

But it yeah it could it could start when she shoots the arrow into that spider

Alice: 52:10

Mm hmm. I hesitate on that one because that feels like the turning point to me. The spider itself feels like the turning point. the spider does not set up the goal of wanting to get away.

Cathryn: 52:24

No true true

Alice: 52:26

So, some things, I'll just toss out some possibilities. It could be, I wonder if she gets another denial of going south. whether it's directly from her father or whether it is, like, she mentions it to Maven and Maven says, Good luck on that.

Cathryn: 52:47

Okay

Alice: 52:47

And, and, and Stario is like, well, dang it. Or, whether she, if she doesn't get another denial directly of going south, then she gets a slight. That, you know, indicates that the day isn't different. Like, she may feel different, but people aren't treating her differently. so my, question here is, what makes her want to go out? What makes her want to leave? Because, the out, To in the turning point with the spider is where she's going to have to come back in and the way that the piece about Master Bard Eldrin will feel aligned with this is if we can attach Master Bard Eldrin's presence to the hope of getting out again. Like that's our ticket out. So if we can set up the goal in the inciting incident with, I want to get out, and we can, we have to kind of shape, like, what is that goal specifically? What is that thing that she wants? I'll come back there in a second. But if we set up that, I want to get out in the inciting incident and we get to the spider and the spider's like, you've been out as far as you can go. This is the end of your tether. Time to go back in. And it's like, okay, I can't even get. I, I established that I cannot get what I really want, which is to go south. At least not right now. Like, it's not, it's not happening today. It should have happened ages ago and it's still not happening today. but my, my proxy for that is just going out into the wilderness with my friends. And now I can't even have that, I have to go back in. And then to get that hope of Master Bard Eldrin, it's like, oh, maybe, maybe there is a hope of out again. Like, the hope of out is back. Like, I thought that this hope died when the spider bit, but now the hope is back. So, yes. You look like you have ideas, Cooking. Tell me what you're thinking.

Cathryn: 54:36

Oh no I'm just assimilating what you're saying I'm just putting it together'cause I like that idea of Bringing that idea of, Master Bud Eldrin Bright at as part of the. beginning So that when he's there at the end yeah, that feels amazing.

Alice: 54:52

Yeah, yeah, because, that piece feels to me like the piece where, start the story quickly, that's the start the story quickly bit, because Master at Raard Eldren being here is the thing that's going to kick us off to going south, which is where the story really kicks off, so the faster that we can get into that, that is the move the story forward quickly kind of piece of this, and I definitely don't want to be putting in a scene here that delays that, where we like, Shove that off down the way we're like, let's see what happens before and let's see what happens before that and before that and suddenly Master Bard Elgin doesn't come in for three chapters like that's not what we're trying to do, but I think that, Figuring out, yeah, getting him tied into the beginning of the scene in some way, whether it's directly naming him or just establishing that, like, higher level goal of, of leaving and going south with, Where Master Bird Eldren has been calling her for decades. Like, that is what the true goal is. So, I've said like six times, I'm going to come back to the goal, the, the, to do this without this. tell me what your thoughts are on that, specificity around the goal right now. What does Astariel want and what does she not want in order to get that thing?

Cathryn: 56:08

Ooh okay She to, to blossom into the person that she knows that she can be with all her abilities developed. and my first thought is without having to her father about it, but I'm not, I'm not sure that that's quite it yet, but there's something of that energy there

Alice: 56:33

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Because that, I think, is, I think, that At this point, is like the, like, start from this page, that's like Astariel's book long goal, that goal will evolve over the course of the book, but if Astariel could name right now, page 1, the goal that she's basically like set for herself, for the next 300 pages, that I think would be what It is. She wants to blossom and flourish as herself without incurring her father's wrath about it. Like, she wants her father back, but also she wants to be fully herself. And so I think, like, yes, starting there, excellent, because that's at its core what's happening here. and that gives me just, like, So many ideas for the meaning of these progressive complications, like if we think of progressive complications as she is in the forest and they have a successful kill or something, and then she, and that's exciting, it feels like being herself, and then they're in the forest and this threat of a spider comes up and it's like, oh, oh no, can I, do I have what it takes, like, I might fail myself if I handle this, In a way that doesn't feel like me being my highest self. I might feel like, like, go home and Maven killed that. And wow, I'm a coward. I really thought I had more in me than that. So she chases after the spider and she kills it. And that's like, yay, big success. I knew it. I knew I had what it takes. And then the spider has bitten her friend. And that's like, That's horrible, like I couldn't get to it in time to, to rescue him from that, but it's okay because I have these skills and I know I can use them, and she's trying to use her magic, and for it to not work when she should have the capacity to do it, like That feels like gutting on top of all of the rest of this, like I could imagine a version of this where it's like she's got this hope all day of I want to be everything I know I can be, and at every obstacle, people keep putting these obstacles in front, first off, people just are like putting roadblocks in front of me, and I'm like dude. Just let me walk down the road, I have the right of way, and you're just putting up these barriers in front of me. And then it's these obstacles that are legitimately challenging obstacles, but I, I triumphed over them. But I didn't quite triumph over them, and here's an obstacle that I should be able to triumph over. And I'm failing, and it just feels like I can't, because all of these roadblocks have stopped me all the way. I could see that being like a point where

Cathryn: 59:03

role That is the

Alice: 59:03

That doesn't have to do this, but I can see a version of this where that is so intense that Astariel just like breaks down and cries over the fact that her, her healing magic couldn't heal him fully. So to pull that kind of intensity, I'm not, I'm not saying like make her cry at the turning point. That's not the solution here, but to pull that kind of intensity into these actions, I, what I want to do is take that, that high level kind of intensity. Interior world goal around I want to be

Cathryn: 59:34

I

Alice: 59:39

in this world without angering my father because then you go back into that moment where she is, Potentially crying over the fact that her magic didn't have the full success she wanted it to and just thinking like my father told me not to go out here. My father told me I couldn't do this thing. My father denied me the opportunity to develop my magic. If I stay out here any longer and I try to force this, my father's going to be really angry with me. If my father finds out that I tried to kill this spider, he's going to be really angry with me. Like I'm kind of at this point of no matter, I think that's part of it too, is like the turning point. forces the protagonist to realize they can't accomplish their goal without the without. So there's kind of like, if you can get it to the point where there's no way forward that's not going to leave her father angry with her, if that's the without side of this goal, that could be really powerful. But okay, so I'm going down that internal goal path, but I want to now talk about The external goal path, because I think looking at these in tandem will be helpful, and they'll kind of feed into each other. We have an internal goal that's like a, a book scope goal for Estariel. But On the day after her coming of age ceremony, when she wakes up, she's going to go do specific things. And she's doing those specific things to achieve a specific end and that specific end is not like she's not thinking of that as to be my realist fullest self. She's thinking of that as like, this is the thing that's going to get me what I want right now. You know, like that's a very like literal thing that she's doing. So what is the, what does she literally want? In the inciting incident. And part of this is unclear because we haven't picked that specific moment of inciting incident. So we're kind of working these in tandem. Like what she wants in the inciting incident is a little different if the inciting incident is while she's still at home versus the inciting incident is while she's out in the field. But I think if we can play around with what feels like the right goal here, we can kind of work backwards to the inciting incident.

Cathryn: 1:01:48

yeah okay externally she wants the word's to do something productive or useful keep on keep on coming But that's still more internal mean if it if like right at basics wants to shoot some pheasants right down and it's just like very basic level she wants to do it well she wants to get a like a quick painless kill like through the eye She wants to do it perfectly that's what she sets out to do that morning you know at a very at a very basic level

Alice: 1:02:26

Yeah. Now I think that's great. I want to tie that to the, the out and in piece of this. Like, why, why shooting pheasants? Why, I guess, okay, let me think about this. So, okay. I've got it. I think I've got it, Cathryn. I think it clicked. Or at least the next step clicked. So, I think the, External external, the go out and shoot some pheasants, I think that's good. I think the high level internal, where it's I want to blossom as myself, that's also fantastic. I think the disconnect is the middle level, where it's I want to go do something useful, the disconnect is if it is out versus in, that's one thing. If it is useful versus not useful, that's another thing. So, and either one could be the true thing. So you can tell me which one of these feels more aligned. But with our turning point being we have a sick person now who needs medical attention that a star real cannot provide. So do we go back home or do we stay out? and the ending the resolution being that we did go home. But when we got home, we got the promise, the potential promise of leaving properly, truly the way we were always supposed to like with those two things we've got out and in as our goal here, and if the goal is useful or not useful, then, that's a different, that's, that's, that's, it's, It's close, but it's not the same. What that would do, like, it could align, because you could have it be Astariel's trying to prove herself useful this whole time. She gets to this turning point where she can't heal Sindar. And she is feeling like a failure because she's not useful. And then when she gets home, Master Barad Eldrin is like the hope that she can be trained to be useful. So there's a possibility where you can make it that useful or not useful dynamic. The question is, Is it useful versus not useful, more compelling or less compelling and aligned than out versus in?

Cathryn: 1:04:35

um yes

Alice: 1:04:37

Is this a scene about leaving versus feeling trapped, or is it a scene about trying to meet her full potential and be useful versus feeling like a failure, like she can't live up to that potential?

Cathryn: 1:04:50

it's hard to decide mean I mean it is kind of both like wrapped up together and I'm trying to I'm trying to tease it apart as to like which one

Alice: 1:05:04

is

Cathryn: 1:05:06

I'm kind of leaning towards the useful not useful but that that might be internal bias because out versus in is a far more external construct than useful versus not useful so yeah, I'm second guessing myself

Alice: 1:05:26

Well, I think that both of them Both of them have elements that carry throughout this entire story. Like, both of them are going to be true this entire story. And the real tension that Astariel is feeling is that, Asheron, her father, is requiring her to be useful by singing to him by playing for him in a way where she's like, I am only at like 40 percent capacity here because you won't train me. And I can't actually do the thing that I'm here to do without being trained. So you're trying to make me useful. And I want to be useful. Like I don't want to keep. Feeling like I'm a bottle of untapped potential and yet you won't let me be what you're trying to just use me right now when I'm not actually ready to be used here like that's not and and yes, like, am I ready to be used? That's also like something she'll have to unpack later on in the story too. But that sense of there's that, and there's also that piece of I need to go, I need to go and have the space to develop and become myself. And if I stay, I can't do that, and you're holding me back and requiring me to, like, you're telling me that the only full self I can be is whatever I can manage to be right here, like, and I can feel that that's wrong, like I can feel that there's more. So both of these are going to be true. All the way through the story, and I think there's a way to layer them here in this scene as well. I think trying to walk into this scene with thinking in your mind, I am going to put both out and in, and useful and not useful, into the scene all the way through. I think what that's going to do is going to sink you in a Pit of feeling like you've just got you like all you can do is write a bunch of interiority because there's like She's in a mire, and she is in a mire, but especially in this first scene We want that mire to be something that's like dogging her while she's doing great actions And we're like what's going to happen next so I think that it's worth picking one to make the focus of this scene that's going to be your guide as you edit the scene and I think, let's throw the, the without side of this in here is the without side of this. Without angering her father or is it something else? What's the consequence of Not going back to Citadel.

Cathryn: 1:07:57

Hmm I If she doesn't go back to the Citadel then the first thing that comes to mind is that the conditional trust that she's built up with her father is going to be severely damaged and he's gonna make her feel like a child again probably in a really humiliating way as far as, the external realm, if they don't go back to the Citadel straight away, is gonna suffer unnecessarily and, you know. It's my world, I can play around with the effects of the, the venom, but, potentially he could sustain some kind of permanent damage or require a protracted recovery rather than a quick one I can decide that whatever I want but will be physical consequences for him, I do like the idea of the trust though cause Astariel has worked her butt off to get this trust and could be it out the window um even though she should just have it she shouldn't have to work her butt off to get it she's just the kind of person who is trustworthy you know, it's it's, of character. And the fact that she's had to earn it and had to toe the line, and submit to strictures. that are unreasonable that really rankles so I don't know there's there's something, there's of that in there but don't know that doesn't seem external it I'm, I'm I'm I'm

Alice: 1:09:40

all right

Cathryn: 1:09:42

at the internal

Alice: 1:09:43

That's all right. That's all right. You're giving us you're giving us the threads to pull So some things that stuck out to me about that first off are The idea of not being treated like a child Because I think that for her to not be able to heal Sindar could feel very much like she is at child level in her skills. So she feels like a child, even, like it's that, it's that tension of child versus not child, that is also underlying this scene. Where she woke up today feeling like a mature woman, a mature elf who's an adult ready to go out into the world. And It's like everybody, to the degree that they are even respecting that, are only paying lip service to it. And she knows that her father probably doesn't. And she's like going out here to prove herself, to be useful, to be in a space where she can be everything that she is. And, like, to hit the spider point

Cathryn: 1:10:49

Yep Coming up short

Alice: 1:10:53

When I stretch the farthest, I still end up back in child space. Like, like, my father doesn't even have to be here to shame me in order for me to hear his voice telling me, Astariel, I told you, you couldn't do that. You needed to stay home. Like, this is why I didn't want you to go out on these hunting trips. Like, her father doesn't even need to be present for that to run in her mind. what's also really interesting to me here Is the idea of the stakes of this scene mirroring the stakes of the climax of the story, like the, where the story is going. so I'm just gonna throw that one out there, because we are working with this opening scene. So as we're playing around with all of these layers, and we've got multiple layers here, I'm really interested in that idea of whichever one you choose. to be top tier, being something that kind of mirrors things that are coming down the line. I think that determining the inciting incidence is going to help with this. That we're playing around with inciting incident versus goal. And, Determining the inciting incident is also going to help feed into that goal, just as the goal is feeding into the inciting incident. So, that is the place where, okay, let me play a few options just to give you some structures to go play with. option one inciting incident could be the thing that kicks her off to set out on this hunting trip, where she's like, Cool, I think I'm not going to hang around the Citadel today. I think I'm going to do something useful. I think I'm going to go out there. I'm going to be with my people. I'm going to, like, not be in a space where people are going to treat me like a child. And then she's going to go off and she's going to shoot some excellent pheasant. And then it'll escalate and we get to the turning point. And, then That's where it all comes crashing down, and she's, like, has to go back in. What sucks about going back in is she's going to go back to being treated like a child, but she's currently, like, child shaming herself here. She's currently not feeling useful. She's currently feeling like she failed. And, she goes back home with, like, the potential of this day is just evaporated. It was supposed to be a day with so much potential. It was a day when she felt like things are going to be different and they're not. And the Masterbird, Eldrin is there. It's like, oh.

Cathryn: 1:13:26

Silence Silence

Alice: 1:13:30

inciting incident 2. maybe another option for the inciting incident is something that happens on the hunting trip. Like she's already on the hunting trip. And, the thing about being on the hunting trip. I think this is where I'm getting tripped up with starting it there is that that doesn't give you context to illustrate why she doesn't want to be home because all the people who are on the hunting trip are people who do treat her the way she wants to be treated. And when they slip up, it's just a name thing and it's not actually respect thing or an expectations of her abilities thing. so there's. There's not space to establish the why she doesn't want to be home and why she feels like a child, like she's being treated like a child at home and why she doesn't feel useful at home. There's not space to establish that. So it all then has to come out in, exposition, like narration, whether it's internal monologue or dialogue, like it just has to be told instead of being seen. And so if you can get a context at the beginning, where she's feeling the reason why she needs to be out on this hunting trip. And then you get her on that hunting trip and that spider requires her to come back. Whether it is the reason is because she's being treated like a child and she's gonna go out and prove to herself that she's very adult. Or, and then she tries her magic and the magic doesn't work because she's still got child level magic and she has to come back and she's feeling really bad about it. Or whether the reason is that she, is, like, just super frustrated with how things are going here at the Citadel and how she's not being treated the way that she wanted to be treated. And so she's going to go out and do something useful because nobody is like expecting anything useful of her and then she gets out there and usefulness at its end and again because like it ends with the spell not working like her bardic magic not working as well as she knows that it could it's not that she can't do anything it's that she can't Operate at the highest level that she knows that if she had been trained like she should have been, she would be able to by now. And so she's not useful anymore. Here's the ceiling on her usefulness. She can't do this. She's got to go back into the space where everybody, really particularly meaning her father, is just going to reinforce this message of her not being useful. Or whether it is, this feeling of like, I should be at the point when I'm doing things with my life, I should be out there, I should be down south, I should be training, I should be,

Cathryn: 1:15:59

bye

Alice: 1:16:00

and, and, like, that hope that I will get to today, and then getting denied that, and then going out because this is the best out that she can get to, like, this is the best way that she can go out and at least not be trapped in this place that feels like a prison, even though she's just been denied, like, the true journey, and then coming back and there's hope of the journey, so, you know, and, and the spider then, of course, being happy time over, your time playing outside is done. And this was only ever play, like this was never you actualizing, this was never self actualization. When the moment came for self actualization, you came up short, go home, like. Those three things all are perfectly good, like really strong arcs. You can choose any of them. I suspect that more than one is going to have flavors in here. So it's not that you're choosing one to the exclusion of the others, it's that you're choosing one to be your guide. But I keep coming up on, in order for us to have the contrast. About the going back, we need to see why she needed to go out, and the reason why she needed to go out didn't happen while she was out there, it happened before she was out there.

Cathryn: 1:17:12

yeah yeah I really like the the energy of that last scenario you went through Like I was I could feel it in my body of that energy Yeah Like I think that's the energy I want

Alice: 1:17:26

Nice! Fantastic! Good! Then, I think I want to send you off to play around with this and see what you come up with for the inciting incident. I think we've got enough like Direction around the goal that I would just pull one as a placeholder and not continue trying to hone it right now because that'll just kind of feel like a sticking point But if you can pick an inciting incident to match that goal That's something that'll kick off that goal and get her moving and on that trajectory So that you have the kind of slingshot Throwing her out and then pulling her back in with the spider and you'll take everything that's currently in the scene in terms of the arc of interior world and I would invite you to play with how much of the things that are currently even in dialogue, how much can you play with those being things that maybe they don't even need to go in dialogue because we saw them happen in the first couple pages of the scene and we were like, oh shoot. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, shoot. This poor girl. Oh, darn. Yeah, have a nice time outside. That sounds like a good thing. Go do that. Yeah. Oh, no! You've gotta come home? I'm so sorry. So, uh, yeah. How does all that sound?

Cathryn: 1:18:38

yeah yeah that's good Yeah the cogs are starting to turn I'm quite landed on an inciting incident but I'm getting a picture of maybe the scene starts like at the armoury when she's like weapons to take out for that day and something happens there that is really like Ugh I'm so glad I'm getting out of this place that might be where it starts. But I have still think about a little bit more

Alice: 1:19:06

Yeah, yeah. I, I like that idea. I'm just gonna note in that, if that is where it starts, in the armory, where she's already, like, Moving out, then what to watch for will be that that inciting incident still establishes her goal. So she was just going to go out on a, on a hunt, but now she's going to go out on a hunt and she's going to shoot the darndest pheasant perfectly in its eye. Like, just like prove herself on this hunt. It's going to be great. Like that she's going to go on that hunt differently with more. Purpose, because of this inciting incident, because that's where her goal is really being established. So she may already be moving towards going outside, but she's going to go out more, you know, like more purposefully, more in defiance, more proving something, more doing something because of that, interaction that happened. another idea, just to Spitball thoughts here. and this might fit in the world building or it might not. what if she, like, gets word that a visitor is coming this afternoon and she shall be asked to wear her, who knows, like, child's Linens or something when the visitor comes like there's a some kind of Thing that she's being asked to do that feels a little bit like people have forgotten her role here and she's like no, I don't want to do that I want to go and like do things that have meaning and purpose The fun thing about that, if it fits, is that she would have, like, that setup of, oh, at the end, actually, it's Master Bird Eldren, and it was totally a slip of the tongue that this, who knows, like, random person tried to prepare your child's clothes, because they just forgot, because it's only been a day, like, they had these already, and, and whatnot, and it's not, like, a direct insult to you, But like, the reward at the end, even like, regardless of how that interaction goes, the reward at the end being like, Oh, this thing that we sent it at the beginning, that's actually Master Rod Eldrin coming. That's not like a child thing. That is like an us elevating you kind of thing. That's your ticket out of here. So, like, it could be that there's something fuels her to want to go on that hunt. What we're looking for is the thing that fuels her to want to go on the hunt. The question is just around, like, Logistically, when does that happen? Is she already about to go and now she wants to go more? Is there something else that's happening? And then she's like, nah, change of plans. We're going back to what we normally do, which is go on a hunt. Like, that's the kind of space to play with. It's

Cathryn: 1:21:29

Okay Okay I have to think I have to think

Alice: 1:21:35

how does this feel for you to go and continue exploring this and write your next version of it

Cathryn: 1:21:41

I have a ton more clarity around what this scene needs to accomplish and so even though I don't necessarily have clarity about the content of it I have a lot more around what it does what it needs to achieve and how it can feel end to end consistent which is I think the thing that I couldn't define at the beginning that I was least confident this scene how the beginning matched ending Like I kind had to get to that point because opening scenes are think they're one of the hardest scenes to They to so much. and unlike the later scenes the novel, where you've got the context you have any context for this first scene to rely on that the reader already knows this stuff so I I've a of, a lot more clarity around that and how to connect where I needed to get to at the end with what happens at the beginning to really get that reader sympathy activated the to be just as excited about this resolution as Astarial is because of what it? means to her and yeah, I think you're right that it's not quite in there at the moment and that's the piece that I was missing So that's awesome

Alice: 1:23:15

Yeah, no, that all makes total sense to me. I think that, and I just want to echo where we started the beginning, the arc that you built for this scene internally. Like you have pivoted this scene from its previous iteration into an internal arc that feels very aligned with the story as a whole and is kicking off the book. And we honestly didn't change that internal arc, all we did was take that internal arc and say okay, can we do that and stretch it out over more action, more external action, because we've got characters sitting on horses looking at the citadel, but could we pull those same

Cathryn: 1:23:54

Silence

Alice: 1:23:56

put them on top The exciting life or death action that came before that's really the whole task here is take the internal arc that you've already gotten really strong and pull it across some external action that will hook the reader just as strongly because the reader opening scenes are so hard. Because they do have to do so much, but if I can like just drop some little pointers that I think about when I look at opening scenes, particularly. The reader's a lot more interested in what's literally happening now. Like, we're really grabbed and hooked by active movement now. We're a lot less interested in what kind of context came before. We kind of have to earn the reader's interest in that. And we earn the reader's interest in that by making the literal things that are happening right now so engaging that they create curiosity. So then we're like, Well, okay, so she's angry. Why is she angry? This doesn't seem like a thing that would normally make someone angry. Okay, well, she got more angry. Now I really want to know what made her angry before this, because, like, this is just so, she's doing so many interesting things with that anger. Not only is she angry, she's, like, going and yelling at this person, and she's, like, doing this other thing. Like, those things are really interesting and exciting, And so we're following like those interesting and exciting things and earning the curiosity of what came before this, what's the context around this, what's the world building that, that creates this kind of a situation. So, all that to say, I encourage you to play with the external piece of this, play around with it, look for all of the exciting, hooky things that Estariel can do and say and experience here, and then,

Cathryn: 1:25:47

um, Um

Alice: 1:25:48

kind of like,

Cathryn: 1:25:49

Um

Alice: 1:25:50

to some degree, Let the chips of exposition fall as they may. we do want the internal, we want to feel what she's feeling as she's feeling it. So we do want to feel that drive. But what it might be, is that she is given kind of like a childlike slight early on in the scene, and she gets really angry about that, and we're like, why is she so angry about getting that kind of, like, they just said something kind of offhand that seems a little bit like Childish, but it doesn't seem like outside of the norm Why is it frustrating her today and then kind of learning as we go? Oh, oh, This is her like first day of real adulthood. Like that's galling. Of course I don't know what the specifics are going to be in terms of what exposition goes where at this stage play around with the scene and see What actions do are really interesting, but your goal right now, if I give you one goal from this, is just to look for those interesting external actions that can carry all of this internal stuff, so that Istariel has a lot of interesting stuff to do in the scene, Through which we feel she wants to get out of here and she's being sucked back in and this is all the worst

Cathryn: 1:27:04

yes yes Actually I had when you were talking about characters being angry and why is she angry and all that I just had that idea of like what if she starts this scene angry cause she's like it starts quite calm at present and what would be the change if she starts angry and she's kind of snapping at people a little bit rather than being her normal calm self Yeah, that might help It just might help me like think of the actions could be happening

Alice: 1:27:36

yeah absolutely Absolutely. I also think And maybe this will be helpful at this stage or maybe it's something to table for the next version of this scene But I think at this point it can be fun to play with a really hooky opening line so when I when I was reading this scene the opening line of the current version is reined her horse as the northern citadel came into view, which is telling us what's going on, but it's not hooky. And if you were to look at this opening paragraph, this opening, like three first kind of paragraphs here, there's all this description of the gorgeous citadel. And then. And yet a prison, one that she must voluntarily enter. There's a version of this where I'm going to do a really ham fisted kind of description of it here. But a version of this that starts off with like, Estariol reined in her horse before entering this prison, which she didn't want to go back into, but she had no option. That's not like beautiful literary anything, but you see like it's creating that initial like, what's going on? This is intense. You've got stakes in this first sentence. It's curiosity. That's the energy that we're looking for throughout this scene, the curiosity inducing, interesting stakes, what's going on, fascinating action that we want to know what happens next, and that spider, like, for her to go fight a spider and then be using her bardic magic, all of that stuff is such good context, so

Cathryn: 1:29:02

yes yes

Alice: 1:29:03

pieces to pick up.

Cathryn: 1:29:05

I think I got this really good idea of I'm coming back to that armory bit like and she's like just really aggressively getting her gear together because her father just said something to her on the way out of her bedroom and like and she's just peeved I can imagine that being a very emotional opening

Alice: 1:29:26

Yeah,

Cathryn: 1:29:28

play with that

Alice: 1:29:29

yeah, I love that, I love bringing in The specter of her father, even if he's not on the page at the very, on the first page, like, bringing some of that, like, father daughter dynamic in, I think that's fantastic. I think starting her off in that angry space as opposed to kind of a calm, neutral space, fantastic. Yes. Yes to all of this. Yes. great. So I'm going to send you off to write then. I'm going to, uh, cheer you on as you go develop the next version of the scene. I'll be really excited to see. What that'll look like. before we leave I have one question that I want to ask That's going to be like my standard question for guests to come on to this podcast I'm really curious final thoughts before we go. What do you love? About editing and the editing process.

Cathryn: 1:30:22

I love the feeling of cracking something cracking a problem just feeling that deep that's it feeling in my body And yeah reading just knowing that I've been able to amplify my own I have my own limited abilities like you have your abilities and together creating something that is more than the sum of both of us That just feels amazing and that's probably the thing I love most about uh editing

Alice: 1:31:00

I love that so much. Did you get that feeling today here in this conversation? Okay, good! Good! Amazing! Great! I feel like sometimes these conversations, at least on my end, they, they can run long because I'm sitting here going, I can see the place where it's going to crack, and I can almost get there, but I just am, I know we're not quite there to cracking it. It's going to take another little bit of exploration or drafting to, to fully crack it open. But I'm so glad, so glad that you felt that today. Cause that's just, it's just the best. It's just

Cathryn: 1:31:34

Yes

Alice: 1:31:36

well, thank you so much, Cathryn, for sharing your scene with us. Thank you for joining me on the podcast. Thank you for being my first guest of 2025. and, thank you for sharing your writing with us and being bold to do this in public.

Cathryn: 1:31:52

I feel so privileged and it was an absolute delight. Thank you.

1:31:57

And there you have it Cathryn scene and the ideas we had together to make it even stronger. I hope that as you listened, you heard some ideas that will inspire edits. You can use in your own scenes. I'd love to know what you're taking away from our conversation. Truly. I'm so curious what you're pulling from this. And I want to highlight four takeaways that I see here. First Cathryn wanted to create intense feelings for her readers to hook them in the opening scene. But in the current draft, Astariel's feelings are pretty subtle and quiet and muted. The breakthrough we had right at the end of the call was that Astariel needs to start the scene off angry. We need to kick her off with some big energy, and that will catalyze the drama of the scene. In fact, after we finished recording. I asked Cathryn what gave her that, uh, how we cracked it feeling. and this was it. The idea of starting Astariel off, not in a neutral emotional space, but angry. Something I want you to take from that is that if you want to create intense feelings in your readers, making your characters feel emotionally neutral, or even just. Mildly negative or mildly positive. Isn't going to do it. And one key way to create intense feelings in your readers. It's to create intense feelings in your characters. Especially in the opening scene where we don't have any other context of plot or setting or stakes to create that intensity outside of them. My second takeaway is, did you hear how the idea to make Astariel angry? Didn't come up until the last, like five minutes of our conversation. It's wild. That's such an impactful change, ripe with so much possibility. And I just happened to stumble across it. And the example I was spitballing and Cathryn caught it. And we'd been talking for nearly two hours. By the time we got there, I trimmed our conversation down a good bit for the podcast, mostly cutting the dead air of us, thinking, which there was a lot of dead air Of us just staring off into space and thinking. You. Didn't need to hear that. The reality of editing is it can take a while to find the great ideas. I find that the magic happens. When you give yourself space and time and permission to explore a lot of possibilities that may or may not work because it's in that roaming exploration that you'll find the ones that are just right. My third takeaway is a strategy to figure out the external action of a scene. If you're feeling stuck in the internal and you're not sure what the characters should literally be doing. Go back to the beginning. In this case, Astariel wakes up on the day after her coming of age ceremony. And just ask. What does she do? And then what. And what comes next. And then what. Use those questions to get the shape of the external actions in the scene. And then play with. Are those the most interesting things that could happen. How are they relevant to the story at large? Is there something more exciting or impactful that could happen? This is actually something Cathryn and I didn't do in this scene because as you heard, Cathryn strength is in the internal. And honestly, mine is too. So we both kind of fell back on our strengths. And I think that meant that it took us a little longer for us to find the external. So if you're swimming in the internal or maybe drowning in the internal, or you don't really have clarity about the scene at all, go back to the beginning and ask simple external questions. What does your character do? And then what happens? And then what happens? It sounds super simple, but that's the beauty of it. It'll reconnect you to the creative imagining of what's literally happening in the scene. And finally my fourth takeaway is that characters have complicated in our worlds. If you already have ideas for the internal side of the scene, like the really strong internal arc that Cathryn had built before we began. And you try to study the internal more closely to get ideas for the external. You will find more ideas for the internal and that might have the unintended side effects of making it feel more confusing to find the external actions. We found a lot of internal layers to Cathryn scene, and it took us a while to find our footing in the external. But while it complicated things, it's also an asset characters inner worlds are layered. They have a lot going on internally, just like people do. And one of the strengths that we find in great stories. Is that they help us explore and experience that many layered nuance. Astariel, isn't just wanting to go out and being pulled back in. She's also wanting to fulfill her full potential and feeling smushed. And she's feeling like a grown adult while also feeling pulled back into childhood. When characters feel just one single thing without nuance or complexity. They feel to the reader flat and simple and unrealistic. When they feel multiple things at the same time, especially when those things are in conflict with each other, they feel rich and real. cause I bet you are feeling multiple things at the same time right now. That's life. That's the tension of being human. So while exploring all those layers of inner complexity. might not lead you straight to exciting external action. They are some of the richest, most rewarding parts. I have truly great stories. Those are my four takeaways from the scene edit. I would really love to know what you're taking away from it too. If you'd like to share. Go to dot com slash 76. That's the same place where you got to read the scene. And leave a comment about what you found most interesting or helpful in our conversation. That's I was said. though.com/ 76. And that link is in the show notes as well. And if you read the scene, you already know how to find it. And that's everything that I have for you today. I hope you enjoy getting to be a fly on the wall for an actual seen workshop with one of my clients. I have several more episodes like this plan for the rest of the year. So if you enjoyed it, good news. There's more to come. Until next time. Happy editing.