How to Create an Editing Process That Works for You With Author JD Edwin

A prolific author shares her editing process and strategies for designing the process that works for you.

There are as many ways to edit novels as there are writers.

Which editing process is best? The one that works for you. The process you customize, refine, and repeat, novel after novel after novel.

And in this episode, we’re talking about how to create your very own editing process.

I’ve invited my client JD Edwin, author of the Headspace trilogy, to share the process she’s developed and her best tips for finding what works for you.

You’ll hear:

• The step-by-step editing process JD Edwin has developed over the course of writing, editing, and publishing three novels
• How to develop an editing system that works for YOU (and let go of what doesn’t work!)
• When JD Edwin shares her book with alpha readers, plus the kind of feedback she wants on early drafts
• How JD Edwin decided it was time to send her novel to a developmental editor, plus the mindset that helped this step feel less scary
• Why JD Edwin has come to enjoy editing—and the mindset that keeps her going when editing gets tough
• And more!

JD is honestly one of the most productive authors I know—so productive that it’s almost a little intimidating.

Take a listen to our conversation and get tips and inspiration to try in your own editing process!

Links mentioned in the episode:

Find full show notes, including timestamps of key topics, here

Read JD Edwin’s books and find her online:

• Purchase Orb Hunters and the full Headspace series
• Find JD Edwin on her website and subscribe to her newsletter: jdedwin.com
• Join JD Edwin’s Facebook group
• Email JD Edwin at author@jdedwin.com

Read the Write Great Fiction series and learn how to develop your own editing process:

• Plot & Structure
• Dialogue
• Description & Setting
• Characters, Emotion & Viewpoint
• Revision & Self-Editing

Listen to Your Next Draft:

Chapters

• 5:30 JD Edwin figured out how to tell a great story by writing Headspace
• 8:39 Headspace took five drafts to write and edit
• 11:28 Transitioning from writing the first draft to editing the second draft is a significant mental shift
• 13:19 How JD Edwin decided it was time to send her novel to a developmental editor, plus the mindset that helped this step feel less scary
• 15:36 The step-by-step editing process JD Edwin has developed over the course of writing, editing, and publishing three novels
• 19:56 How to develop an editing system that works for YOU (and let go of what doesn’t work!)
• 24:21 How JD Edwin uses plot treatments to make editing the big picture story structure easier
• 32:06 Why self-editing is an essential part of the editing process, even if you plan to send your manuscript to an editor
• 35:11 When JD Edwin self-edits and when she sends her manuscript to me to edit
• 37:12 How to self-edit a novel (i.e., the specific changes JD Edwin makes when she’s self-editing a draft)
• 45:24 Yes, editing gets easier with more books and more practice
• 53:13 What JD Edwin is editing right now
• 59:15 When JD Edwin shares her book with alpha readers, plus the kind of feedback she wants on early drafts
• 1:02:31 Why JD Edwin enjoys editing and the mindset that keeps her going when editing gets tough

Transcript

Track 1: 0:00

It's a lot more fun than it used to be. The first time you edit, it's really, really daunting. But these days I feel like I've got a good flow with it and I actually kind of enjoy it. I like doing the plot treatments and figuring out how it's gonna change and how it's gonna get better. And I feel like because of this, my first drafts are also getting stronger, and what that means is I can, I fix a lot of problems earlier on, just intrinsically knowing how structure and dialogue and things should go makes your first draft stronger, which means more of it can be recycled into the second draft.

1:16

Welcome to your next draft. Today on the podcast. I have special guest author, JD Edwin. She's a prolific author, and I've had the pleasure of editing several of her books. She also has a new book out today, which is really exciting. So I'm bringing her on the podcast to share the editing process that she used to craft that book. This is a really fun episode because it's the first time that I've invited an author to share their process on the podcast. And as you'll hear. JD has a really robust process in our conversation. She shares. How many drafts. It takes her to create a publication ready, novel, how she self edits her drafts before sharing them with anyone. How she uses alpha readers to identify major problems early on. When she brings in an editor for professional feedback. What a plot treatment is and how she uses it to easily edit big picture structural issues in her stories. And the books that she studied to help her learn to self, edit her novels effectively. There's a lot to cover, so let's get to it.

Alice Sudlow: 2:20

JD Edwin is the author of the Headspace series, a sci-fi adventure series about the champions of a deadly game who traveled the galaxy to save themselves, their planets, and eventually the entire universe. The third book in this series or punters is published as of today, the day this episode is published, and you can purchase a copy at major book retailers like Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Congratulations on Pub day,

Track 1: 2:45

So thank you and I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Alice Sudlow: 2:50

I'm so excited you're here as well. JD is also the author of several dozen short stories. In fact, she and I met when she entered a writing contest that I ran for several years. loved her stories then, and I invited her to keep writing them and sending them to me, and I would publish them on Short Fiction Break Literary Magazine, you can still find her short stories on short fiction break, or you can get her book Maladaptive Anthology of Short Stories. JD has also developed a really robust and strategic writing and editing process to get her drafts of her novels done fast, especially first drafts, and she's the author of an upcoming guide to this Fast first draft process. The working title right now is the Right Fast System, so keep a look out for that. JD is honestly one of the most productive writers that I know. so productive that it's almost a little intimidating. She is definitely someone you want to learn from. If you want to learn how to speed up your writing process and write more excellence novels faster. Now, jd, I have invited you here today for several reasons. you're one of my clients and I love celebrating client success. I'm really excited to cheer you on as ORP Hunters makes its way out into the world. I know how hard you work to put this book together, and it's really rewarding to see it out there for readers to find. And two, One of your strengths is creating systems and processes to make your writing fast, strategic, and effective. And that's really in line with my goal here on the podcast to give writers specific strategies that they can use to edit their novels. So I'm really excited to have you on here today to share your editing process and tips with us.

Track 1: 4:26

yes. I'm looking forward to sharing what's little I've learned

Alice Sudlow: 4:30

I think you might be slightly underselling yourself, but we'll let it pass. You have been writing for a long time. I think you've been working on short stories and novels for a decade at

Track 1: 4:43

Actually. I've been writing my entire life. I started writing before I could write. I used to ask my parents to take dictation. They were very patient. I would make my dad write down my stories on printer paper and then staple them together,,to make books. So I've actually been writing my whole entire life. I don't remember a time when I wasn't writing.

Alice Sudlow: 5:06

Oh, I love that. Now, I'm the one underselling you a decade is, very short in comparison. And I know that you had some ups and downs in those early years. I mean, so when you were dictating stories and stapling them together, I'm assuming you had not at that read Save the Cat

Track 1: 5:24

No.?No. I have as a four year old in China, red say the cat.

Alice Sudlow: 5:32

so, uh, it took a little bit of time to kind of find your footing in the writing world and the storytelling world, and I know that once you started taking this really seriously as a vocation or a career path, that a lot of the stories you wrote, a lot of stories that you'd maybe even published, but the art and the craft of writing hadn't really clicked for you quite yet. Headspace was a bit of a breakthrough for you, right? The first full length novel that you wrote after you really nailed down how to

Track 1: 6:02

Headspace is actually what helped me figure out how to craft a great story. The thing about Headspace that I really want people to understand is it's the first book that I wrote. Purely because I wanted to read it. And that's so important. People don't think about that. You have to write a story that you want to read because if you don't wanna read your book, no one is going to want to. There's a lot of pressure that especially new writers feel to follow the trend. Or you know, when Harry Potter came out, everyone was writing why a fantasy, or when Plight came out, everyone was writing vampire stuff. But you can't just follow the trend. You have to admit to yourself what you want to write and read, and that's what's really gonna help you craft

Alice Sudlow: 6:57

I love that. So what kind of things were you writing before you wrote Headspace, before you decided to write something that you

Track 1: 7:05

I was writing a lot of horror because I grew up reading Stephen King, a lot of Stephen King, like every Stephen King. And before that, goosebumps? remember goosebumps? Yeah. All the goosebumps. I read like every Ariel Stein book, every Stephen King book, and I was convinced my, I convinced myself that I was a horror writer, that I was gonna be the next Stephen King and I was gonna be this horror master. And I kept trying to write these horror short stories, but looking back on it, all I was doing was imitating the style. Without really understanding the substance because Stephen King is really good at crafting complex stories. But I didn't understand that. All I saw was his style and the, the few horror scenes that stand out in his books. I did not understand how he was crafting the stories. And it took a long time for me to admit that I'm act, I'm not scary I wasn't that writing horror. And I decided that I was, I need to write something that's just fun for me. And that was Headspace.

Alice Sudlow: 8:18

I love that. I feel like I had to admit that I'm not scary. a bit of an identity crisis there. It makes me think of Monsters Inc. When Mike Wazowski realizes and he has to embrace different strengths, he finds his purpose, he finds his calling there, but first he has to he's not scary.

Track 1: 8:37

Yes,

Alice Sudlow: 8:38

Oh man. So tell me about the process of writing and editing Headspace since that was the book where you kind of discovered how stories work. How many drafts did Headspace take and what was each draft for?

Track 1: 8:51

Headspace had about five drafts, but the most major setting up that helped it come together with the first two drafts. The first draft I wrote in the period of five and a half weeks, it was about 80,000 words, and I wrote that draft completely expectation free. It's the first time where I said, I'm just gonna write this story because I wanna read this story, and I just wanna see what happens if I write it. So I wrote it and actually before I wrote it, I read, picked up a series of books called Write Great Fiction. There's about, there's six, five, or six books in the series, and I highly recommend anyone starting out to read it. It's divided into like structure, character, dialogue, uh, editing setting. And I just read it. I read them all and I thought, okay, that gave me some foundation. Now I'm just gonna write this book. And I wrote it. And after writing it, I thought, you know, I'm never up till that point. I've never written a second draft of a book. I thought I need to learn to edit. I need to edit this. And I'll go into more of that later. But the second draft was when I really fixed it into something that was readable, and that was a big learning experience too. And after that it was just rounds of polishing. So Headspace really taught me. How to write a proper book and how to edit it

Alice Sudlow: 10:27

That's really cool. I love that. There are a few things I heard there that I wanted to pull out. First off, uh, that you wrote that first draft in five and a half weeks. That's what I'm talking about when I say that Shady Edwin is incredibly productive. Like five and a half weeks is a very, very fast timeline for 80,000 words, as I'm sure anybody who has ever struggled to write a book knows. so that's really cool. Um, second, that approach to just telling a story that you enjoy sounds like a very pants kind of process. Is that how you would consider your writing process,

Track 1: 11:05

at that point. Yes, I am actually in my nonfiction, the right fast system. I actually talk about combining the paning and planning process. But yes, when you write a first draft, it's very much a panther. Process, but no one's gonna read your first draft.

Alice Sudlow: 11:23

Right? That's the thing. No one is going to read your first draft. You can put anything down on the page. The other thing that I hear there is that. Writing first drafts was something that you were used to at that point, but you had to yourself to edit the second draft, and that was kind of a different mindset shift and a different approach to writing. did it feel to go from a person who writes first drafts to finally tackling an

Track 1: 11:55

It's such a mental hurdle. To get over, especially since the first book I completed about 10 years prior to that, took three years in the first draft. I took three years to write, and by the time I was done, I hated it so much. So I couldn't look at it. And it was also really long. It was 140,000 words. So the thought of editing, it was, it was such a hurdle to get over, so to commit. And, and that's the other thing about writing a story you care about is if you care about the story, you're more likely to be willing to edit it and make it better. So it was, again, I had to approach it in a very non-judgmental, no expectations kind of way. Like, I'm just gonna try this, I'm gonna try editing it and see how it turns out.

Alice Sudlow: 12:55

Yeah, You have to pick a story that you're going to enjoy sticking with over the course of several years. Because if this book goes from idea to published book, it's going to take several years, most likely for that to happen. And if you discover halfway through that process that actually you hate that story idea now, then you're little bit of momentum along the way. So I know that on my end, we connected in February of 2020, and you told me that you had this promising novel that you'd worked on for a bit, and you were wondering what to do with it next. did you decide that it was time to send Headspace

Track 1: 13:35

I think at that point, after two drafts, I was feeling like I had finally hit a point where I could do anything more for the book. Okay. And honestly, the decision to send a book to an editor, sometimes people hate doing it. They are afraid of what a professional would say about their book, but at that point I had thought, I've done everything I can for this book. So, and I can emphasize that there's a lack of expectation. Do not have let expectations rule you when you're working on your book. Just put it out there and see what happens. And that's what I finally did was I can't do anything anymore for this book. Let's just see what someone else has to say about it.

Alice Sudlow: 14:26

I love that. I love that open, that sense of openness. I feel like that's something I am exploring as I build my business. I don't talk about this a ton on the podcast, but in my head, a lot of my experiences building my freelance business are, uh, analogous in some ways to the experiences that I see writers go through. And one of the things that I'm doing right now is treating everything as an experiment. And, hey, if it doesn't work, hey, I just have more information, more data about what I can try and experiment with next. And with no particular expectations, just exploring and seeing what happens that explore a lot of things. I can try a lot of things and see how they go. And if you're just approaching it as, hey, Let's see what happens if I send this to an editor. Then you can explore a next step that otherwise feels really scary or feels like it needs to have a particular outcome. just say, it's okay. Whatever happens, you're gonna find out and you'll learn from it, and then you'll have more

Track 1: 15:29

Yes, having an experimental frame of mind is really important to all this

Alice Sudlow: 15:35

I love it. So since you wrote Headspace, you've now published two more novels, master of the Arena and Orb Hunters. Those are the, the sequels in the Headspace series, you're several drafts into your next novel. have worked together on all of those books, and I would say that we have developed a repeatable editing process that we now use for each book. So it started as an experiment, and now we've kind of landed on a system that we work through. You have very specific points in your writing and editing process when you seek out my feedback and when you reach those points, you send me very specific materials to review. sometimes those materials are a full draft, but they're not always, obviously I was involved in developing this process with you because I was part of it, but I would say that it's really been led by you. You have identified and refined the writing and editing system that works best for you. So I would love for you to talk about what your process is and how you developed it. Let's start with the process first, could you walk me through the writing and editing process that you use now from initial idea to final

Track 1: 16:36

So I use kind of a combination of planning and paning as I've talked about before, and I go into, um, lot of depths on this in the right fast system. Which is people usually think they need to be one or the other. They need to be a planner or they need to be a panther. But I am what I would call a paning planner. I guess I start out with an idea. I write a, I go through a system where I have a more and more detailed plan where I start with five points and I expand on those. And if I have a scene list, and then when I have a rough scene list, I would write the first draft. And people don't understand that when you write a first draft and you have a seamless, you don't have to stick to the seamless. It's just a guide. If you write to a point and you discover the scene, no longer works. Just skip it or change it or lever, just the only thing it needs to do is give you a rough direction of where this story is headed. Like if you look at the scene list for Headspace, compared to the current book, it's not even close. Like there's characters that are no longer there. There's scenes that got switched around, characters that got combined, characters that got split, events that got canceled, events that got added. So it's not even close. So I would write the first draft, it would be a really fast draft. And the reason to write fast is the faster you write, the less likely you are to lose track of where you are. And that's where I made my mistake was my first book, which I took too long. I lost track of it way too many times. So after the first draft, you want to go into the second draft, and that's where you want to fix the plot. One part at the time. The point of the second draft is to rearrange. The big picture until it makes sense and there's still a fancy element there because you're still not worrying about the details, the descriptions, new writers tend to focus a lot on details. We don't care about details, not until we've got the big story fixed. So draft two is where you arrange the plot points and make sure everything is where you want it to be. And then from there on you polish the fine points in draft three and four and five.

Alice Sudlow: 19:03

That makes so much sense. I love that. I particularly love that focus on not the details in draft two. from my own experience, I remember how difficult it was when I was first getting started editing to move from focusing on all the surface level details to deeper and deeper levels of the story itself. And finally figuring out how to identify, okay, there are the core plot points and there are the core elements of character arc and development. Let's make sure those work first before we get distracted by all the stuff on the surface. For me, the stuff on the surface is the commas because I also love proofreading. For you, the stuff on the surface is more like those, the specific word choice and the descriptions and everything, but either way, It's the, the, the skipping the distractions on the surface level, little changes and getting deep down into those plot points and revising them first in those first few drafts. So could you talk about how you developed this process? How did you figure out that this is the system that you need in order to write and edit a book that you feel

Track 1: 20:06

It's really trialed error. There's no specific right way to have a system, but you can always refine your system until it works for you. And that's what I usually try to tell people is there's no right or wrong system. Theoretically, any system works, but you have to find the right one for you. And if one system doesn't work for you, maybe you can pick out what works for you and pick out, spit them out from different systems. Just pick and choose what works for you. Like, I write fast because I write a book about how, um, Stephen King, this, this is actually, I think I still do love Stephen King. In his book on writing, he talked about how, oh, the first draft should never take more than three months or something like that. And I took that to heart. And then I read those books, uh, write great fiction on editing, and I use the way that they edit to edit my book. And it's just, you pick what works for you. Not every author has their own way, and you have to find your own way and just write a lot of books. Every book is going to get a little easier. You're gonna find your way a little more with, I'm still refining my system. Every book perfects my system a little more.

Alice Sudlow: 21:31

Are there any parts of your system that you experimented with for a bit and then you decided, Nope, that doesn't work. I'm not going to stick with it.

Track 1: 21:40

Yes. Um, I use a tool called High Word to Help Me Do. It's developed by James Scott Bell, if any of you're familiar with him. He's, uh, he's written a lot of both fiction and nonfiction on writing, and he had this tool called the Knockout Novel. And it's part of the High Word tool. It's like a series of worksheets that helps you understand your characters and your plot more and delve into who they are. I did that for Headspace and I tried it for Master of the Arena, but eventually I stopped doing it, and now I only use the hybrid board scene planning portion where they have little note cards and you can move it around because the knockout novel was helpful the first time, but once I've gotten more used to structuring books, it just felt cumbersome, so I stopped using it. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the tool, just that as I refined my process, I realized it's not a necessary part of it.

Alice Sudlow: 22:49

That makes a lot of sense. I feel like some point too, you start to internalize some of those structure tools, so you may not need the same. Explicit process in the fifth book that you needed for the first book, when in the first book you're kind of learning the structure of storytelling and by book five, you don't need something to specify for you as clearly particular elements might be because you're just in internally coming up with them yourself. And it can even feel a little bit limiting, I think, to use some of those structures when you know that you are already coming them.

Track 1: 23:26

yes. The more books you write, the more you get a sense of, this is where we need to have a beat. This is where the midpoint should happen. This is where you should have a ch shift in character mindset. It becomes more second nature.

Alice Sudlow: 23:40

Yes. And it's not that those, those story analysis elements, Aren't present. They very much are, like you listed out, very specific story moments there. Um, that they, you internalize them to the point where you are, you're naturally creating them or you are creating them yourself without needing that tool to prompt you to remember what they are. Um, I love that. I think that that's great. And I love, uh, that that attitude of experimentation and finding tools that work for you for a while, that help you move a little bit farther in your writing process than determining, okay, this is when these tools aren't helpful for me anymore. Let me either refine my process or find something new. Um, and in that vein, one aspect of your writing process that has worked really well for you and something I don't see a ton of other writers using is your plot treatment. This is not to say that nobody else uses these plot treatments. I think that, that there are many, many writers who do. But uh, in terms of the writers that I work with, this is a little bit unique to you. In fact, you actually introduced me to the concept of using a plot treatment to edit a novel and to the term plot treatment at all. So could you define what your plot treatments are and where that from?

Track 1: 24:52

So I discovered the concept of plot treatments when I was editing Headspace, when I was getting ready for draft two. And I was thinking, man, there's gotta be somebody who can tell me like, what's the steps to editing a book? And I was just randomly researching. And I came across this person who was talking about screenplays. Apparently plot treatments are mainly used for screenplays, which I don't know why, because I think they're useful for any kind of long draft writing. But he talks about how he takes each scene in his play and then he writes down what happens in that PO in that scene and versus what he wants to happen. And I thought that's just really useful. So it just, it was just a thing that I stumbled onto.

Alice Sudlow: 25:46

Yeah, uh, it is really useful. So when you send me a plot treatment, you send me a document that is somewhere between, I'd say, 20 and 30 pages long where you have. out every scene. You've, uh, kind of just summarized all the action that happens in the scene and how it moves the story forward, or you're basically just telling me the story in 20 to 30 pages as opposed to, you know, 200 to 300 pages, uh, which is a lot faster to read. I will admit, the first time that you suggested that I edit your plot treatment, I was a little bit skeptical because when you're reading a summary of a book, you don't get the same emotional experience of bonding with the characters and feeling their highs and lows along with them, and kind of having that gut reaction to going through a story. But I am completely sold now. We troubleshoot so many potential problems so early in your drafting process by editing the plot treatment before you write. It's now something that you've used in master of the arena and in orb hunters. And in your current book, you're, you're just constantly using plot treatments. So talk to me about how you use plot treatments in your editing process now. When do you create them? What do they help you do? And what kinds of things are you editing for when you edit a plot treatment? Those are three big questions, but just tell me your thoughts on

Track 1: 27:03

I use plot treatments in between drafts that will require major changes. They're really useful for structural changes because it's much easier to look at a 20 page plot treatment versus a 200 page book. You tend to lose sight of what's happening in a book when you're trying to fix it. The thing about a plot treatment that a lot of people don't quite understand is that it's not just a summary of the chapter. It's got every bit of detail. It's how it's like, pretend you're telling your story to someone. But you're trying to do it. I don't know, while drinking and rambling and just be like, this is what happens, but also this and this and this. Lay all the notes out there. What does a character feel in this chapter? Why are they saying that? Why are they acting that way? Put it all in the plot treatment, all the what's and why's, which is why a plot treatment is so long. It's not just a synopsis. A synopsis is one page. A summary can be a couple pages. My plot treatments are usually anywhere between 20 to 40 pages because every chapter is laid out in multiple paragraphs of this is what happens. This is why. It gives you this bird's eye view of what needs to be shifted, what needs to be changed, what, how the relate events relate to each other. That's the biggest one is having a short document lets you see how the events relate to each other. This person's doing something Chapter 16, because of this thing that happened in chapter two, and that's something that you can easily tie back when you're in a plot treatment rather than a book. And with every draft, usually there's a plot treatment between drafts one and two for manipulating major story structure. And then again, between two and three to work out details and polish the final version of events and all work out all the tie-ins.

Alice Sudlow: 29:17

Yeah, that second version of the plot treatment, the plot treatment between drafts two and three, um, is often us kind of testing the changes that we made in the plot treatment between draft one and two to say, okay, so we made these adjustments. You wrote another draft. This is how the plot treatment lays them out, did they work? And what are there, are there any outstanding kind of high level to mid-level concerns that we can adjust in the plot treatment? Before you shift into detail work, what are the other kind of remaining concerns on mi in mind? Uh, and when you have that level of detail, When you have, when you tell the story like that, I love that approach of like, you're hanging out with friends, you're drinking some beers, and you're telling the story. And in the summary form, like obviously you only have 10 minutes or 20 minutes to tell your friends this whole story. You're not going to read them the novel page by page. But when you do that, I like that image because you're still writing to an audience in the sense that you want to make this story fun to read. It's not that you are listing out some dry information about the book, it's that you're including all of the details somebody understand this story a way that feels like it flows, like a story that you want to tell, a book you want to read. Um, it's, it's not just dry facts. It is still a level of storytelling. I say that not because. I think people need to get hung up on getting the plot treatment perfect. I think at every stage the purpose of tools is simply to you through the next stage. It's not to use the tool perfectly, but the to say that the plot treatment still has the heart of the story in it, that you're not trying to it really dry and remove any details that you might need to understand the story. It's really about capturing the essence of the story a

Track 1: 31:06

Yes. And again, the plot treatment is just like the S, you don't stick to it a hundred percent. You write the first draft, you treat the plot, and then you write the second draft. And as you do the, that's what I'm going through right now with the current book is I have, we worked on the plot treatment. And I'm working on the second draft and I'm thinking, oh, some of this in the plot treatment actually doesn't work. Or, okay, I actually need a little extra here, even though we didn't talk about in the plot treatment. And then after that, you're gonna realize that's why you need a draft in between plot treatments too. You can't just think that you're gonna perfect, perfect your book doing plot, treatments, stuff changes when you write.

Alice Sudlow: 31:46

Yes. That makes so much sense. And now you have me really curious to know what you're changing versus what we discussed in the plot treatment in this next draft of the book. I love discovering that there are still new surprises that I didn't see coming. Um, and we're going to get into some of the things that you're working on in your next book a little bit later. But before we do, I want to talk a bit about self-editing because one of the things that I think you do really well is self-editing your novel, as you've talked about all the way through here. You started off with that first draft of Headspace, and then you said, okay. I have to edit a second draft. Let me figure out how to do that. And you've included that self-editing process all the way through your writing process. That part really hasn't disappeared. We have worked together on several drafts of all of your novels, but I don't think that I have ever seen any of your first drafts. You have always done at least one round of editing before you send a manuscript or even a plot treatment to me. So let's talk about that. is self-editing an important part of your process?

Track 1: 32:46

For me, I feel like I have to. I feel like I have to push my book to the best that I can make it before bring a professional's opinion because I, first of all, editors cost money And I feel like if you're just pushing this first draft at an editor before you've done your best, you are really not making the best use of your editor because your editor is supposed to take your storytelling to the next level. But if you haven't reached your highest level, they're only gonna take you to level two when in fact, you on your own can reach maybe level two and a half, in which case they can take you to level three and four. And I also feel like knowing the techniques of self editing is going to make your writing so much better. There's a lot of newer writers who feel like an editor is gonna perfect their story. That's not true. An editor only spots problems that you haven't. It's up to you to really elevate your writing. So if you can perfect your story the best way you can, then your, you will get way more bang outta your buck with your editor.

Alice Sudlow: 34:09

Yes. I love that especially that the skills of self editing are always going to help you elevate your own writing, even when you're working with an editor. I think that that's so important. I think. I don't know that people necessarily believe this or like writers in the writing community necessarily believe this, but I do of think that there are some misconceptions that float around out there about what editors do with this image of like you send your book off and then maybe the editor sends it back and it's better, and that's not exactly how the developmental editing process happens, especially the developmental editing process is very much a, here I have identified these challenges, these things that aren't quite working in your book yet, let's talk about how to fix them. You go off and do the fixing, like, I don't do the fixing for you, you get to fix your book. the self editing tools are really, really important and really useful. Um, regardless of whether you're working with an editor or not on a particular draft, you're still editing your book yourself. So when do you decide to self-edit and when do you decide that it's time to send your book to an

Track 1: 35:17

Me personally, I always self edit after the first draft. And because with the first draft, that's always gonna be where the biggest problems are, where everything's out of whack, you're missing important parts, and you read through it and you think this is awful, and then you fix it. So for me, I would do the self, the self edit on the first draft. I would check for structural problems, and then I would lay it out in the plot treatment. And theoretically, the plot treatment going into second draft is supposed to be the treatment that has all the major plot beats in place. That's the Siri. So I usually give you the plot treatment from after the first draft, because that's supposed to be the, this is mostly good. Everything's solid. This is what the second draft should theoretically be. And since the second draft for me is always a big one that's supposed to solidify like 80% of the story, that's where I usually seek feedback to make sure that I haven't missed something major.

Alice Sudlow: 36:26

That makes a lot of sense. So the plot treatment, you haven't necessarily written a full second draft by the time that you've sent me materials, but you're not sending me the first draft either you've done the first draft and then you've taken your own time to do large scale structural analysis and review to see, okay, what's working in the first draft? What are you going to adjust going forward? Create a plot treatment based on where you stand so far for the second draft, and then I give you my feedback and you go craft that second draft. That's that structural overhaul with both your own ideas already. Integrated and the we have as we talk through that plot treatment. So you've already kind of got one round of editing thinking happening, even though you haven't done a full second draft yet. I think one of the things that's most challenging about editing a novel in general, regardless of whether you're working with an editor or not, is figuring out what exactly to edit for first. You have to identify your, the problems in your story, and then you have to figure out how to fix them. And that's really tough to do. And I would say that's one of the biggest reader that writers hire editors is to get an outside perspective on their story from someone who knows what to look for in terms of problems and things that they can do to solve them. but when you're self editing, all of that challenge falls on you. So how do you navigate that when you self-edit? What are you looking for

Track 1: 37:53

I can't emphasize enough. Anyone who wants to learn to edit needs to rate the read the right great fiction series. You absolutely need to read it. It is six books. They're not long. Start with structure and end with editing. The other ones, you don't have to, there's no particular order. Just read them, but start with structure and one is end with edit. What that series of books does is breaks down every aspect of writing the book, and then in the editing book, they summarize it with a checklist of things you need to check for with dialogue, with structure, with setting. And it presented in such a picture that's so clear for you to think about, like, this is what you need to look for in editing structure. This is what you need to look for in editing dialogue. This is what you need to check for when you look at your descriptions. So that series is what helped me get started. I'll edit, and the more you do it, the more books you write it. These things just become intrinsic. You get better at structure and you get better at writing good dialogue or good description. But th that series of books is what helped me figure out how editing should go.

Alice Sudlow: 39:12

I love that. I love a good checklist. I just love clarity of something really structured to say, here, here's what you're looking for. Here's what to do. Do these steps and you will end up with a better book. Um, and clearly it worked because when you brought me that draft of Headspace, I remember thinking this book is really good. Like, I have my work cut out for me trying to figure out what to do to level this book up. Um, We identified some things to adjust in the next draft of Headspace, but honestly, we didn't have to do a structural overhaul of that book. We were mostly, I think, drawing out particular elements of the story that were already there, but weren't getting a lot of page space or, um, being used to their full strength to develop the characters. we really didn't have to do a structural overhaul, and we really didn't have to dialogue or refine description. You had already done all of those things, so clearly that system worked because you brought me a great book right out of the gate, and I'm really impressed by that because first books are super hard. everybody listening

Track 1: 40:25

it was my second book. No one's gonna know about the first one.

Alice Sudlow: 40:29

first books are even harder, and sometimes they get put in books are also hard.

Track 1: 40:35

no one needs to talk about the first book.

Alice Sudlow: 40:39

So you and I both love a good system and we love a good checklist, uh, and I know that the writers who are listening also love practical how-tos that they can use right away in their own editing process. Could you give us some step-by-step things that some writers listening might be able to go do right away? Could you tell us step by step how to self-edit a draft of a novel? I know that's a huge question. You can't tell us everything, but just kinda

Track 1: 41:05

Well, just based on how I learned to self-edit, start by reading that series of books and really try to understand them. Read the Write Great fiction series, and while I'm at it, read on Writing by Stephen King just because it's, it's such a good book on the relationship that a writer has with writing. So after you do write your first draft, Don't have any expectations, just write it and then try your first plot treatment. And I do have all these steps in my book. The right system is coming in October. Uh, you need to be willing to murder your darlings. You may have heard this quilt. You have to be willing to tear apart your first draft. You have to be willing to take it apart, break the scenes, break the, you have to be willing to take it into pieces and move it around. You have to be willing to add and remove characters. You can't get attached to anything in your first draft when you write. And there were scenes in Headspace that I had to cut out that were painful. I didn't want to, there were characters that I have to combine or split apart. Because they just didn't work as they are. Nothing is sacred when you edit, and that's something that first time writers have a hard time with is they feel like what they put in their first draft is sacred. It is not. You have to be willing to split apart. So once you have that mindset, do your plot treatment. Write out each chapter, not how it happens in the first draft, but how you want it to happen in the second draft, and that's your first step to successful edit.

Alice Sudlow: 43:09

I love that, especially that, uh, philosophy, that nothing is sacred in your first draft in that editing process, that can be changed. I think honestly, that is one of the biggest hurdles that I see with writers who are just starting to edit their books, is feeling really attached to what's already on the page. And the longer that it stays on the page, the more attached that you get to it. So it's really hard to shift into a mindset where anything is malleable, anything can be changed. In fact, I'm just gonna mention another podcast episode that I have that really is about that process, that approach of looking at its constituent parts and determining how to put it back together a stronger way. Maybe that doesn't mean putting all of the parts back in. Maybe it means putting different parts in. Maybe it means combining characters or splitting them apart, or removing some characters entirely. That episode is called three Simple Steps to Edit Absolutely Anything in Your Novel, and you can find that episode@alicesulo.com slash 23, uh, for my take on that process. But I love that that's really important for you as well, jd. I think that, having that and flexibility to change anything what gets you the opportunity to discover your best story lying there within, hidden within all of that first draft material. Uh, so I love that. Also, I love all your book recommendations. I'm totally taking notes on all of them. I am, I am excited to go expand my ever-growing bookshelf of craft books. So this has been really, really awesome. Thank you so much for sharing so many practical details about your writing process with us. I'm sure that writers are taking notes about things that you've mentioned that they will try incorporating into their own editing process. definitely taking notes on all of these craft books that have helped you design your editing process, and I'm looking forward to reading them too. I will admit I haven't read them yet, but I'm very excited uh, especially that checklist you've given me the promise of a checklist. If I can make it to the end of this series, I get a checklist that's like the prize for me. Very excited for that. So before we wrap up, I want to talk a bit more about your experience editing your own novels. So let's talk about Orb Hunters first, since it's out now, and we are celebrating Pub Day. First off, how many drafts did Orb Hunters

Track 1: 45:39

last count eight,

Alice Sudlow: 45:42

I think that's the

Track 1: 45:44

or Partners was a very long book. It's had a lot of a big job to do, wrapping up a trilogy, so it was very, very long. As compared to the other two books, it's more of an epic than the other two books are. But by the time we got to org Hunters, I have to admit, the editing process had gotten easier. Just by way of me having done it so many times at this point. So even though it's longer, the editing process is not as painful because I'm just more used to the process, write a lot of books, people, it just, it gets easier.

Alice Sudlow: 46:23

Fantastic. I love that so much. I love that particularly because from my perspective, ORP Hunters was, I would say, the trickiest project we had tackled yet, like it was definitely your most complicated, uh, book in terms of the plot structure and the, the themes and the elements that we were pulling together in that book. from my perspective as an editor, it feels like you have escalated the challenge for me with every book you are just coming up with, um, Complex ideas I get earlier in the process, the opportunity to help you workshop like structurally, how are these very interesting, very unusual ideas, really going to work on the page. So for me it got more complicated. I love that. For you, it has gotten easier, just as the practice of editing drafts has, you've gotten more and more practice. You certainly got a lot of practice with that on orb hunters, we went through a lot

Track 1: 47:22

See, that's my goal is to make this a lot easier for me and a lot harder for you so that you have to.

Alice Sudlow: 47:30

again, the, uh, the strategy in figuring out when to hire an editor is find out when it makes your life harder. I love it. So what was one major challenge that you faced while editing or hunters, and how did you solve it? I mean, there were lots of things that we changed, but I'm really curious. Can you tell us anything that was maybe one specific thing that you had to tackle editing in this

Track 1: 47:58

I would say if I had to pick one thing, it would be the fact that the main character of this book is coming into a situation that's preestablished in the first book, where every character, other character in the story knows what's going on, but this main character is stepping into it blind. But for this character to figure out what's going on, you also have to not board the readers who had gone through the first two books and already know the background. So the review of what's going on in the universe, which the readers are already somewhat familiar with, had to be done to this character in a way that flows with the story and is not boring and is not too repetitive. And it need to add just enough of perspectives from other characters to also make it interesting where you see, oh, these characters who experienced book one and two have a twisted perspective on what happened, but also the main character needs to more or less figure out eventually what really happened. So that review has a lot of threats through it that need to tie back to the first two books. So the continuity of that was the real challenge.

Alice Sudlow: 49:14

That makes so much sense. Uh, exposition is always tricky. Exposition is even trickier when your reader already has a bunch of information and your protagonist has no information and needs to catch up to where everyone else is. so there any particular strategies that you used to solve that problem?

Track 1: 49:34

A lot of plot treatments because when you have the book was what, 130,000 words and you can't keep track of thread through that many words. So the best thing I could do was to summarize after every draft and check the key points to make sure that they're consistent from seeing toing and that it works with the overall structure.

Alice Sudlow: 50:00

Yeah. I love that. How many plot treatments did you end up doing for ORP Enterers or how many revisions of plot treatments?

Track 1: 50:07

I mean, was the eight drafts, I think I did, maybe three or four plot treatments. Maybe more. It's the most pop treatment I've ever done on a book. I rarely do more than two pop treatments on a book, so that one needed a lot of it.

Alice Sudlow: 50:23

I, lost count for sure on the plot treatments. I was not keeping track, but, uh, we definitely went through some, through several rounds of refining the structure. We did not get the right on that first. And so every, the plot treatments continued to be useful because we were continuing to refine that high level story structure stuff. And I want to say that, um, the way that you up solving that exposition problem, Is a little bit similar to how, um, everybody who's been listening to the podcast for the last few weeks knows that I am obsessed with the, into the Spider Verse movies, uh, that series, uh, movies are brilliant. I love them. Uh, no one is surprised by this. Um, so I'm going to reference them again. I said on the last episode of the podcast that I was going to take a pause on but I guess I'm not, um, in those movies. There are tons of spider people they all have a similar backstory. And we know the backstory because we've read Spider-Man before or watched Spider-Man before. So they also have that issue of the audience is coming in with pre-knowledge about events, but we do need to contextualize them for the characters in this movie. And we've got to do that in a way that doesn't bore everyone to tears. so they give you kind of. They kind of repeat exposition over and over and they foreground it within the story as this is what's happening. We know that we're doing it. Here's exposition from a different perspective. Let's just go through it and sum it up. And you did something similar in ORP Hunters where we get kind of two or three moments in the book where different characters are giving exposition backstory, explaining what has happened in the universe in the last few thousand years. they all a different set of information and they all give it from a different perspective. And they all give it from a different angle with a different goal for how they will impact the protagonist and what she will do with it and what she will understand with it. for the reader, it kind of becomes, of it is updating the reader on things that we didn't know. and some of it is, a watching how the protagonist will respond to this information that we know. Is, uh, given from different angles. We, we know that, um, it might impact her in different ways depending on what she believes or doesn't believe. So you kind of have that repeating exposition, but foregrounded so that we can interpret how she will respond to it. so I think that that's a really interesting strategy there. Well you are in the thick of the editing process right now for your next book. can you tell us about what that

Track 1: 53:21

That book is my first romantic comedy, and I'm really excited about it. I have never written a romantic comedy before, but I read, I discovered a love of Sophie Kinsella, for those of you that don't know, she wrote Confessions of a Shopaholic and all her books are just really funny and really charming. And this book it that I'm writing is called Love, death, and everything else I'm bad at. And the funny thing about this book is I originally started it back in my mid twenties, back when I thought I could still be a horror writer. So this book started out as a really gritty horror. Book about a girl who can see the grim reaper and in a world where there's vampires and werewolves hunting each other and there's a lot of drama. And he ends up having a relationship with the Grim Reaper and then the werewolves and the Vampire start using her as a pawn in their ongoing conflict because of her relationship with him. And I got to, I got struck maybe halfway, and I abandoned it. And about three or four years ago, I started thinking about it and again, and I was like, this book is not fun. I love this idea, but it's not fun. And I just realized this is a romantic comedy. This is not a horror, it's a romantic comedy. So now it's become a like corporate drama. Except Urban Fantasy. It's about a girl who's trying to find her career, and she ends up being an apprentice reaper in r i p, which is, uh, grim Reaper's organization. And the new, the Grim Reaper in charge is like the new grim Reaper. He's just taking over from the last one. He has no idea what he's doing. So like, he's like a, he's only a hundred years old, which is really young for Grim Reaper, and she ends up being friends with him, and it becomes a romantic comedy and corporate drama. And there's still werewolves and vampires, but now it's all in the corporate context. There's competing companies and contracts and just like meet cubes and fading. And so it's a romantic comedy now.

Alice Sudlow: 55:48

I love so much about that. First off, I love a good romantic comedy, so I'm having a great time editing this book. But second, I think that it's, I was going to comment on the fact that you started out thinking you were going to be a horror writer and now you're off writing romantic comedies. I didn't even realize this originally was a horror novel that you were writing in that horror face. really funny. Um, and I love the fact that you were like, this book isn't fun. Let me make it a corporate drama. That's where it's at. No, I think that it's fantastic. I love that journey so much. I, very excited for this book. I'm having a lot of fun with it. and I love your exploration into different genres while also kind of, I would say maybe not necessarily discovering, but. Refining, exploring more, holding true to the story elements that are most fun and exciting to you. I think that a theme that I see across a lot of your stories, both the novels that we've worked on, and also a lot of the short stories of yours that I've read, is that they tend to have some kind of unexpected fantastical twist. So, uh, this would not be, uh, the JD Edwin story that I have come to be familiar with. If, uh, you had removed all of the fantastical elements and it was just a story a woman in the corporate world falling in love. But no, you've got that plus the grim reaper, like that feels very much like

Track 1: 57:27

That is what I ultimately learned from Stephen King. Actually, I don't know if you read much Stephen King, but he tends to start out really small and then have this fantastic element to it. Like there's, if you've read in the Dark Tower, he ties like all his stories into different universes in the Star Tower and then all his other books have references to the Dark Tower. And I'm just like, this is amazing. Everything in one universe, there's this, all these little stories and they time to something bigger and I love that.

Alice Sudlow: 58:02

That's so great. It also makes it really fun for, um, readers discovering Easter eggs of going, Hey, these things are actually interconnected in ways that you didn't see or expect. so are you in your editing process right now?

Track 1: 58:18

I'm writing draft two. I'm about, I wanna say three quarters of the way in about 80 something thousand words. And it's um, I'm hitting the point where we have the most of the major changes, which is the climax. We did a lot of work on that, so I'm about to hit that part. So, which is why I'm stalling because I'm not looking forward to having to rewrite so much I'm hoping to have that, um, have the second draft done in the next, could finish probably in the next two weeks. And then I gotta go one more round on it, then I'm gonna take it to my alpha readers, which is my husband and a friend of mine. And then after they do that and I do another round, I'll be able to hand it to you for the ultra high level, extra hard level edit.

Alice Sudlow: 59:14

Yeah. No, I love that. And actually, that reminds me, one of the things that we didn't really mention here is Alpha readers. At what point do you get feedback from people who are not an editor?

Track 1: 59:27

A lot of people are familiar with beta readers. That's what most authors are familiar with. Beta readers usually come pretty late in the process and they are usually little tweaks that you get from beta readers. I usually, I try to have a round of Alpha readers, which is when I still fairly early in the process. And the tricky thing about Alpha Readers is you need to have people who are somewhat skilled in and are familiar with your work because they need to be able to give you structural. Advice. Um, the same people who do beta reading are probably not gonna be your alpha readers because you need someone who can spot big picture problems, developmental problems, but they're not quite your editor because they need to do it from a reader perspective. Right now, I am, aside from you, I only have two alpha readers, which is my friend Melanie, who is good at, who has she, I always joke she has editor jeans, but she admits her train on being an editor so she can kind of high level spot character and developmental issues. And my husband, who is the least qualified reader in the world, he can, he doesn't even read novels most of the time. He reads extended university encyclopedias for one. Yeah, he's one of those. But the thing is, if he spots a problem, then it's a big problem because if the least qualified person in the world spot the problem or doesn't understand something, it's a problem. So you, and that's gonna help you like spot the really obvious stuff. So the two of them are my alpha readers. Before it goes to you for like, I guess alpha plus. So that's all different ways of filtering out more obvious problems before it gets to you.

Alice Sudlow: 1:01:40

Yes. And strategizing, um, what kind of feedback is most helpful at any particular stage, and who is able to filter out those problems and at what point you've done enough filtering and now you just really need a professional eye to step in and say, okay, so we've got it this far. Let's take it farther. Um, and how much of that work that you can do on your own for free before you ever hire someone. Uh, I think all of that is fantastic, and I really love your strategic system of having very readers where you

Track 1: 1:02:14

I realized I didn't answer. When I do that, usually draft two or three is when I do the alpha reading.

Alice Sudlow: 1:02:20

So by that point, done some self editing yourself. And again, sees your first drafts. You, you write your first draft, and it's only you So how are you feeling about your editing process right now? With love, death, and everything else I'm

Track 1: 1:02:38

It's a lot more fun than it used to be. The first time you edit, it's really, really daunting. But these days I feel like I've got a good flow with it and I actually kind of enjoy it. I like doing the plot treatments and figuring out how it's gonna change and how it's gonna get better. And I feel like because of this, my first drafts are also getting stronger, and what that means is I can, I fix a lot of problems earlier on, just intrinsically knowing how structure and dialogue and things should go makes your first draft stronger, which means more of it can be recycled into the second draft. So the second draft is not just complete rewrite, you can copy and paste some things. Yeah, so it's, I'm feeling about it these days.

Alice Sudlow: 1:03:28

I love everything you said, but I will admit I got stuck on when you said that you were enjoying editing more and more. Like my brain just stopped there. I was like, yes, didn't. You are getting it. I love the editing process. It's my favorite part of the writing process and I am a huge advocate for writers discovering how much fun and how creative and how interesting and exciting that this part of the writing and editing and publishing, basically the book creation process can be. This is so much fun and I am really, really glad that you are starting to the editing process more and more. It's not the first draft. There's so much

Track 1: 1:04:11

I'm only on the second draft. You can ask me again in three more drafts. I'll probably change my channel.

Alice Sudlow: 1:04:18

There is a point somewhere in the book where even if you have a book idea you absolutely love, you get to, um, maybe say draft eight. And you say, I'm actually done with this and I never want to read it again.

Track 1: 1:04:30

Yes. Why the time you publish a book? You will be very sick of it. You never wanna read it again. No one else has read it yet, but you never wanna read it again.

Alice Sudlow: 1:04:42

You're like, this book is done. It is tired, it is overused. The rest of the world can have it now. Fine So what keeps you going when editing gets tough? What, do you have any like mindset or attitude or anything that you remind yourself of when you're editing to

Track 1: 1:05:01

Drinking and crying helps but overall, it still goes back to having a story that you really like. If you believe in your story and you really enjoy it and wanna see it down to the world, it makes everything a little easier. It makes you, when you're working on something you love, it just makes everything a little easier. And that was one of the issues I encountered was my first book was I didn't love the story enough. I just, I'm, I'm gonna rewrite that book eventually at some point into a way that I like, but it's the, that first story, I didn't like it enough.

Alice Sudlow: 1:05:42

Yep. Yep, that makes complete sense. And when you do love it, you have a lot of momentum and you have a lot of, uh, drive to keep you editing even when the best drinking and crying.

Track 1: 1:05:55

Yes, I'm underestimate drinking and crime. It's, it helps

Alice Sudlow: 1:06:04

Well, thank you so much for all of this, jd. This has been so much fun. Thank you for joining me on the podcast and for sharing your experience and all of your tips and the promise of another checklist. I am so excited for another checklist. Where can writers find you, and specifically, where can writers purchase or punters and the rest of the Headspace

Track 1: 1:06:25

books can be found on Amazon in Barnes and Noble, and you can also purchase audio books on Audible. My website is jd one.com. You can sign up for my newsletter and I have a group specifically on Facebook called The Headspace Launch, uh, the Headspace Launch Team Group. Although I may have to retitled that after this book comes out. So I'm looking forward to hearing from you all. Oh, and my email is author jdn one.com. I look forward to connecting which readers anytime.

Alice Sudlow: 1:07:01

Brilliant. I will put all of those links in the show notes so you can find jd edwin jd edwin.com. You can find her books on Amazon and Barnes Noble and I'm sure. I'm sure that at some point there will be links to easily find those books on her website because I'm gonna keep nudging her to to add those links there so you can find them easily uh, sign up for her newsletter so you get all the news. And, uh, of course the link to that Facebook group will also be in the show notes. So if you want to get behind the scenes view of the creation of her books, you can get that there. She also posts really entertaining memes about her books, so now they might be more funny if you have read her books, but that just seems to me like a great reason to read her books and to see what the fruits are of this really strategic editing process that she has honed over the last few years. you so much, jd. Thank you for joining me. Uh, thank you for sharing all of your wisdom and knowledge, and I wish you all the best as you wrap up the second draft of Love, death, and everything else I'm bad at, so that I get to

Track 1: 1:08:09

I'm looking forward to that. Thank you so much for having me on.

1:08:14

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with JD Edwin. She is an incredibly creative, imaginative, strategic, productive, and hardworking author. If you found it helpful to hear about her editing process and especially if you enjoy a fun Saifai adventure story. I highly recommend that you go pick up a copy of Headspace and see what the end result of that process is. And if you're looking for more tips to develop your own editing process, definitely check out the books that she recommended. I've linked to all five books in the right great fiction series and the show notes. Plus, keep your eye out for Jed's first non-fiction book, her guides, the fast first draft writing and editing process that she uses. That's coming in October. So if you want to hear more from JD about how to edit your novel. That's something you'll want to pick up this fall. I think my favorite part of this whole conversation. I was the moment that JD revealed that she is coming to enjoy the editing process more and more. It was tough to start and it took a few books for her to get the hang of it. But now she's finding that the editing process can be a fun and rewarding part of creating a book. You know, me, I love editing. And I always hope that writers will discover how much fun it can be to. So that's where I'll leave you today. Take note of JDS editing process and experiments with some new resources and strategies to help you develop your own process and see where you can find the fun. Happy editing.