Extended Edition: How Spider-Man’s Leap of Faith Makes Us Feel Triumphant

Two editors break down how Spider-Man creates a transcendent moment of triumph that feels like story magic.

Last month, I asked a big question:

How do you make your readers feel?

See, the writers I work with are telling fantastic stories. But often, those stories are missing some essential piece, some spark of magic that captures my emotions and makes me laugh, cry, swoon, grieve, worry, or—well—feel anything at all.

So I turned to a scene that does make me feel. It’s a brilliant moment from Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse.

First, I broke down exactly how that scene creates a sense of triumph so strong, it’s almost palpable.

Then, I laid out the three-step formula I’m using with my clients right now to help them do the same thing in their stories.

And when I finished recording those episodes . . . well, I still had more to say.

So I turned to my editor colleague Kim Kessler, who loves this movie as much as I do. And I invited her to grab a mic and join me for an intensely detailed breakdown of how exactly this scene creates story magic.

Kim and I cover:

• How this scene fits in the story as a whole—and why it’s so important
• Where the scene actually begins and ends (we had different takes on this!)
• What values shift in this scene (this was weirdly difficult for me to pinpoint!)
• The way that every single element, from the shots in the scene to the lines of dialogue to the colors and even the frame rate, contributes to the emotional experience we feel as viewers (and how writers can do this as well!)
• And more!

Consider this the uncut (or at least, much, much less cut) behind-the-scenes version of those previous two episodes.

In it, you’ll hear tons of editing concepts I’ve talked about on the podcast, all put into action and applied to a brilliant scene.

Kim and I had a blast breaking down every nuance of this scene, and I hope you enjoy it as much as we did. More importantly, I hope it helps you craft stories your readers love just as much.

Links mentioned in the episode:

Go deeper in this episode:

• Watch the scene we’re studying
• Get a breakdown of the important takeaways, including time stamps

Catch up on the previous episodes in this Spider-Man series:

• Ep. 32: How Spider-Man (And All Great Stories) Makes Us Laugh, Cry, and Feel the Feels
• Ep. 33: The 3-Step Formula to Evoke Emotion and Make Your Readers Feel

Follow editor Kim Kes

Transcript

Kim: 0:00

dramatic irony is one of my favorites. Um, because it's when the reader actually knows more information than the protagonist point of view, character, whatever. And so it's when you know, okay, so go back to that scenario of, walking up to this door and we're like, whoa, what's up? I don't know what's behind that door. And neither does the protagonist, but then the. Camera. It's very Hitchcock, right? The camera, it shows you the big whatever awful monster thing that's behind the door. And then we're like, oh my God, it's back there. And then the, we go back to the point of view of the protagonist and they're like, it's fine. I'll just, let me get it. I'll answer it. You know, what're like, no, don't do it. Like we have dread or whatever. Like we're having an emotional experience that they are not having. Cuz they dunno, they might not be afraid. They think it's normal.

1:27

Welcome to your next draft. Today, I have a bit of an unusual episode for you. Something I haven't done on the podcast before. I'm welcoming back. My first returning guest of the podcast, author and editor Kim Kessler. Like me, Kim is a story grid, certified editor, and not like me. She's also the author of the novel, according to plan. And in this episode, Kim and I are going to do a close analysis of a scene from the movie Spiderman into the spider verse. If you've listened to the last couple of episodes of this podcast, you'll be familiar with this scene. I've been talking about it a lot because it's just so good and such a great example of excellent storytelling. But here's the thing. The whole time that I was preparing for those episodes, I was running all these ideas by Kim. I'd analyze a section of the scene and then I'd get on zoom with her and I'd say, Hey. What do you think about this? And she'd say, yeah, I think that's spot on. Or have you considered this. And then I took all that feedback and all those ideas. And I went back to my script and put together episodes 32 and 33 of your next draft. All about how to create emotion in your readers. And how this specific scene of Spiderman creates really powerful emotion in us as viewers. You can find those episodes@alycesolo.com slash 32. And Alice said low.com/ 33. I worked hard to keep those episodes tidy and direct. And to the point they're a tight 21 and 26 minutes, respectively. But by the time I finished, all I could think was this represents like one 10th of all the great ideas that Kim and I had together and the epiphany's that we had as we broke down the scene. So I decided to ask him to talk it all through with me again, she was not hard to convince. We love these kinds of conversations. And this time I recorded that conversation so that you can hear it too. So consider this episode, the uncut, or at least the much, much less cut appendix two episodes, 32 and 33, or maybe the behind the scenes version of those episodes. Kim and I are studying the leap of faith seen in Spider-Man in intense detail. We cover a lot of ground, including these key topics. First where this scene fits in the story as a whole, including the external and internal stakes of the movie. Second. The sequence of events leading up to the leap of faith scene. And where we think that the leap of faith scene actually begins and ends. We had different takes on this. Third. The elements of story in the leap of faith scene, you'll hear us call them the five commandments, the inciting incident, progressive complications, turning point crisis, climax and resolution. Yes. I know those are six things. Fourth, the external and internal value shift in the leap of faith scene and why the external value shift was so tricky for me to pinpoint. Fifth the way that every single element in the leap of faith seen from the shots in the scene to the lines of dialogue, to the colors, and even the frame rate creates enormous contrast between the beginning value and the ending value of the scene. And how that creates an emotional experience in us as viewers. Plus you'll also hear Kim talk about one of her favorite topics, creating narrative drive the momentum that keeps readers or viewers engaged in a story. She defines three types of narrative drive suspense, mystery, and dramatic irony. And we talk about how different scenes in the movie rely on different types of narrative drive and why that works. If you've listened to a few episodes of your next draft already. You'll hear many of the editing concepts that you're already familiar with inaction in the scene. And if you're new to the podcast, you'll learn how and why this scene works. And then you can go explore previous episodes to find out how to use those editing concepts in your writing. You don't have to have listened to any previous episodes in order to get a lot out of this conversation. But I do recommend watching the scene first so that you know what we're talking about. You can find it at our auto.com/ 34. Story analyses. Like this are some of my favorite things to do. This is what it's like to go watch a movie with me. Quite honestly, this is the conversation that I have for one or two or five hours after a movie. And Kim and I had a great time recording this episode. I hope that you enjoy it as much as we did. Let's dive in.

Track 1: 6:01

All right, Kim, I am so excited to have you back on the podcast so that we get to talk about Spider-Man.

Kim: 6:09

I'm just so excited to that we get to hang out way more now that you're doing your own business thing. And we get to have all these amazing conversations. Like

Track 1: 6:19

I'm very excited to bring you on the podcast, record this conversation, and share our collective editing brilliance with the world.

Kim: 6:29

Yes. It's such a fantastic movie. It's such a fantastic story. The scene is so good. Like there's just, there's so many things to love about into the spider verse,

Track 1: 6:40

this scene specifically, the reason why I chose this scene as a scene to study is because of all the scenes in this movie, this is maybe the scene that has the highest level of transformational emotion. There are, there's the climax later on that's also really beautiful and brilliant. There are, there's. There are so many moments throughout the movie where he's challenged in different ways that have all their own emotion tied to them. But I think if I were to pick one scene of the movie that has the most emotion and the most character transformation in it, it's the scene. So let's talk about what this scene is in the context of the story as a whole. So,

Kim: 7:29

Yeah, well I was thinking, as you were saying, like this scene, and I'm thinking, you know, it's because of where this scene is located in the story. Um, you know, as the, we're in the all is lost moment, we're in the dark night of the soul, and we're, we're, uh, emerging, you know, we're emerging from that and we're crossing over into, um, the ending payoff or Act three, act four, depending on how you wanna call it. But we're going from like the lowest low and we're, we're, we're crossing the threshold of value to the upper, you know, the positive spectrum of going like, oh, we were, you know, we had failed on so many levels. Um, and then now we are, we are succeeding on so many levels, like and just ha feeling the, the, when you cross the equator of the value spectrum, right. Which doesn't make sense if we're not looking at something visually. So, but you know what I mean, like, we're going from, from failure, um, you know, too. too. To a form of success. Right. The villains hasn't been defeated yet, right. So it's not like, right. That's why we're not at the climax, but we have crossed this threshold. Um, and once you cross that threshold, there is no going back down. Like he's never not Spider-Man after this.

Track 1: 8:44

That's the thing. The

Kim: 8:45

is that first time when we do

Track 1: 8:47

The villain has not been defeated, but Miles has self-actualized. That's what's happened

Kim: 8:54

yes. Mm-hmm. And that's what needed to happen in order for the villain to be defeated, right? So we have to have this transformation in miles in order to have the external, like, you know, save everybody or whatever.

Track 1: 9:07

his external question, the external question of the story, the stakes of the story are, can Miles save his friends? Like it's an action story. The stakes are life and death. The question is, can he save his friends? And it's really important because he has to be the character who stays behind when they shut down the portals to the other multiverses. Uh, because if any of his friends stay behind, they can't survive in his universe. So

Kim: 9:35

Mm-hmm.

Track 1: 9:36

if he isn't there to shut it down, somebody will die. So his question is, can he save his friends? Can he be the person who. Let, who sends them all through the portal and shuts it down without external help. He will be alone at the point when he has to shut it down. But his internal question, I'll be curious to know what your thought is on his internal question. Cause I haven't actually articulated what I think it is. His internal question is something around, can he be ready to do the thing? Can he embody, uh, spider-Man? Can he, is he ready? Is he truly a superhero? Is he truly, can we expect things of him? Now I'm thinking back to the, the beginning of the movie when he's told by his teacher that he is trying, she sees him trying to. Undervalue himself. He actually fails a test by getting every single answer on, uh, mul on a, um, truth or false

Kim: 10:41

gets it wrong.

Track 1: 10:42

And she's like, the only way you could get this all wrong is if you knew the right answer and intentionally chose the wrong one. So actually, you get a hundred percent on this test, and I see that you're trying to, to undersell yourself. I need you to write an essay on your expectations for your life and your dreams for your life. Like, take the concept of great expectations and write me an essay on it. So there's this question for him of who he is becoming, and he, he draws this mural where the text on the mural is no expectations. Like there's kind of some smothering of himself that we see in the beginning of the movie. Um, and.

Kim: 11:22

Yeah. So like, and is it, you know, coming from like, The pressure that he's feeling to be excellent, you know, to be, um, to just like to break the mold or like, whatever, whatever sort of like concepts he has in his head that, you know, that his parents have, you know, put in him and, and told him. Or, you know, what, like the fact that he's switching schools and going from his other, you know, going from his, you know, neighborhood school to a different school, you know, like all of that stuff. And he's just like, I don't want that thing. Like, you know, he just, it's a, yeah, he's, he's definitely, um, I don't know, and I wonder why exactly. Like, it just doesn't feel authentic to him. It feels like, is it like, yeah. What is it that he's, what is it that, is he truly doubting himself or is he, or does it not feel authentic? Like, what is the thing that makes him be like, meh, I don't really want that.

Track 1: 12:18

This is such a good question and not the direction I thought this podcast was gonna

Kim: 12:23

Yeah. The thing that I'm wondering. So, So, the question I'm wondering is, and I think it has to do with his uncle and his dad. So like, the fact that he has, he has two people that he looks up to, right? He has these two mentors. Um, one is his dad. His dad is a cop. Um, and then he has his uncle who I don't know that we, you know, know necessarily what he does. And I don't know that Miles necessarily knows what he does, but he knows that. He, he loves his uncle. His uncle is cool. His uncle loves him. Like they have a really cool relationship. He encourages miles in different ways, um, than his, his parents do, than his father does. And so the tension that's been playing out between these brothers, right, between the father and the uncle about who are you gonna be? How are you gonna show up in the world? And it feels like that is the tension that Miles is, he doesn't know, he's not sure. Right? And what's interesting from a, from like a, a worldview revelation perspective, like there's factual knowledge about his uncle that he does not know. He doesn't know how far deep he is in with all this stuff. Like he doesn't, you know what I mean? He doesn't know who his uncle, what his uncle's been up to, and, and kind of the trap that he's stuck in in that way. Um, and so he doesn't have all the information about whatever went down between. His dad and his uncle. Like, he doesn't know that. And so he's just, you know, he's got an immature worldview. He doesn't know what he doesn't know. And so I think when we have people like that, that we're looking up to, and we don't really know where we fit, we want to love everybody, be friends with everybody. We don't want, we don't wanna miss out on thi so we just, we don't know how to navigate between these worlds, um, when those worlds don't get along. Um, and so anyway, I think that that the familial relationship there, um, is a big, to me, feels like a big part of, of what he's wrestling with because he identifies and, and connects with his uncle so much. Um, and you know, he's been in his life forever, you know, that kind of thing. Then there's something in him that he really clicks with, like they just click and his dad is like fundamentally against that thing. So I think it feels probably like. His dad is fundamentally against miles. Like, oh, if I'm like, and there's something that's gonna be wrong with me because I don't connect with you, dad, like, I don't click with you. I click with my uncle. And like, so there's just, there's, those are the kinds of messages then that Miles would've received that are like, no, not those parts of you. These parts of you. And he is like, no, if you don't want all of me, you don't get any of me. So I'm gonna fail the test. You know, I'm just riffing on what I imagine it would, you know, what I imagine it would be like in, in that sort of scenario and in, in the mind of the character. But,

Track 1: 15:12

Well, I think that his uncle and his dad like that as a tension of these two mentors, these two models, is huge because then you get to the, like the preamble before the scene that we're, we are really our core scene here. So in their core scene, it's the scene where Miles actually leaps off of the building and becomes Spider-Man. But before that happens, Bef like a, a few minutes before that happens, he's in this fight with his, um, with all of the spider people at Aunt May's house and the, the, the bad guy, doc Ach comes and finds them. He's been followed by his uncle, who is the Prowler, so he's discovered that his uncle is the prowler. He got followed by his uncle and by all the bad guys to Aunt May's house, and they ended up in a fight where he is watching his uncle, who is his mentor throughout his life fight. Peter Parker, who is his new Spider-Man mentor, he kind of has three mentors. He's got his uncle, he's got his dad, and he's got Peter Parker. The failed Spider-Man turned kind of redeemed. Spider-Man. Yes,

Kim: 16:26

Oh, his gut. It makes me so happy. Uh, it's so funny.

Track 1: 16:29

It's so great. So he is got his three mentors and two of his mentors are in intense combat there in Aunt May's house. And you can see as he's watching them fight him, panicking him, flitting in and out of invisibility, not sure what to do, frozen. He doesn't want either of them to get hurt, and yet his uncle is on the bad guy side and his uncle doesn't know that this is Miles. So he gets him by the throat and he's got him on the roof of the building and he's about to like choke him or throw him off the building in order to get the, the Uber, the device that they're trying to, that they need to save the world.

Kim: 17:06

The

Track 1: 17:07

The McGuffin. Exactly, exactly.

Kim: 17:09

The Magoo

Track 1: 17:10

yes. Peter Parker calls it a, a goober. And, uh, I enjoy that. He's like, there's always something you gotta get. There's the thing, there's the, the other thing.

Kim: 17:19

again, another way to like lampshade the silliness of all of it. Yeah,

Track 1: 17:23

Yes, we just need the one item, the McGuffin, if we just had the McGuffin. Um, so then he's staring at his uncle who's choking him on the roof, and he pulls off his mask and reveals that he's Miles. And they have this moment of recognition where Hess facing his uncle at his uncle's worst, like at his uncle's strength of evil. And then his uncle is faced with the choice of, do I continue on the path of killing my nephew, or do I release my nephew knowing that I'm not gonna make it out of here if I disobey kingpin? Uh, he, uncle Aaron knows what's happening. He knows what's, what's going to happen.

Kim: 18:08

Which I imagine is how he gets in this sort of mess in the first place, right? Like, you know, you're, you're doing what you need to do and you're going along. And at some point if you get wrapped up with somebody as awful as kingpin, like, You're, you're really stuck in it and you're trapped in it. And so it's like a, it's its own, you know, status, tragic,

Track 1: 18:28

Yes.

Kim: 18:28

you know, kind of thing.

Track 1: 18:29

Yep. Yep.

Kim: 18:30

it's just, yeah. It's just like, okay. Um, anyway,

Track 1: 18:35

And so his uncle's, yeah, his uncle's redemptive moment is that he lets go of miles and he lets miles live. And his reward for that is that kingpin shoots him, and Miles then watches as Uncle Aaron dies. And so he watches as this mentor who he admires very, very deeply and connects with and feels like his, his uncle gets him in his artistic creative side and his kind of rebellious side too. Like he can sneak down into, um, into the, the subway tunnels and paint murals that his dad is telling him, take the stickers off of the signs and everything. So like his dad kind of feels like he's got the structured legal right and wrong, follow the correct path. And Uncle Aaron's kind of more edgy and wild. Like you can break boundaries, you can explore, be creative. Um, and so he watches Uncle Aaron die and then from there he. His, he's, he's furious. He's fired up with the revenge emotion to carry him to kingpin, but he doesn't have the skill or the ownership of his i his identity that will allow him to go up against kingpin. So his spider friends taken back to his house and they sit there and say, you're not ready. You can't come with us. We're going to go, we're going to leave and go through the portal. And Peter Parker is going to sacrifice himself by staying behind so that he can put the Uber into the machine and stop the machine, which means he won't be able to go home. So he'll die in this universe. And Miles says, no, no, no, I'm coming with you. And they say, you're not ready. And he says, no, but I have to be like, I, I, I, I am so angry. I can't let him get away with this. We have to make him pay. And Peter Parker just obliterates him, proves that he does not have the skill to do this.

Kim: 20:37

What I love about that moment is I was thinking about this, that like. So Miles is like, I'm ready. And then immediately he gets, you know, whatever the legs swipe thing, and then he, you know, catches him whatever. And so he's, so Peter Parker is hanging from the ceiling and holding miles by like the ch the shirt of his,

Track 1: 20:57

The chest of his shirt? Yeah. The front of his

Kim: 20:58

Thank you. So he is hanging there and he is like, okay, do it. Then

Track 1: 21:02

Yep.

Kim: 21:03

shock me, electrocute me, turn invisible. Do this thing like do something like, this is your moment, this is your chance to do the thing, do it. And then Miles can't do it. So I was like, oh, that's the, like the really, the felt like the turn of like failure, like.

Track 1: 21:20

yes.

Kim: 21:21

That was the, where he, he was given an opportunity and you know, all of the friends are outside the window listening and they're like wanting him to do it. And they hear his sounds of like, you know, and he just, he can't, he can't do it. And so then it feels like then it's like, okay, it's been, it's been proven. It is known that Miles is not ready. He does not have the ability to on command do it. Now he can't, he doesn't know his, he can't use his powers like that, um, at, at this stage. And so he's not ready. And so he, he was saying that he was, Peter Parker was saying that he wasn't. Now it becomes very clear to all that he's not ready. And so I was thinking about his crisis in that moment is are you going to, you know, are you gonna accept it or not? Like, are you gonna like not accept it in a way that's like giving up, but. In order to do anything, you have to still recognize reality as it is and not make it wrong. Like there's nothing wrong with Miles not being ready like he hasn't had to be yet. Like there's nothing, he's not fundamentally flawed or broken in any way by the fact that he is not Spider Man yet. Like he's not doing that

Track 1: 22:25

He got bit like four days ago.

Kim: 22:27

yeah, it's like barely a thing. Like, yeah. So, so then what I loved is then he says he, he yells to Peter Parker, he gets all wrapped up in the chair, right? And then he yells, um, when will I know I'm ready? So rather than saying, I'm still ready, Peter, I'm like, you know, he doesn't say I'm ready anymore. He's saying, when will I know I'm ready? And so I thought that was, that felt significant, like a shift of like, okay, I recognize that I might not possibly be ready, but when will I know that I'm ready? And then the answer he gets back is, you won't, it's not, it doesn't work that way. It's a leap of faith like, You just, there isn't. And so then, then that's, then he leaves and whatever. And so then we are at the end of that. He like struggles in his chair and he kind of comes to a place of like, rest his, of rest in his hands. His hands are on the, on the webs, and he's just sitting there, which feels like the end of that scene, beginning of the next scene where then his dad comes and knocks on the door. Right. So, um

Track 1: 23:32

And I would posit that, um, there's a moment I think the crisis of that moment. I think you're right. It's exactly what you're saying. Accept reality or keep trying to say that he's ready despite the clear evidence.

Kim: 23:52

Right. I was like, keep fighting the truth. Like, that was my little thing I wrote down, like, like, what are you gonna do? And, and so the fact that he's like, all right.

Track 1: 24:00

And.

Kim: 24:00

Cool, cool, cool, cool. But I wanna know this thing. And then he gets, he gets the information that he needs. You won't know. You can't know.

Alice: 24:07

And I would suggest that's the resolution of this scene. The, the moment where he makes the decision that he's going to accept reality is I think, while he's hanging from Peter Parker's hands and he's staring up at him and he's been groaning for like 15 seconds trying to make his powers work. And you can see you get another shot straight down on his face and you see all these emotions play over his face where it's like this frustrated desperation to kind of this heartbroken panic a little bit. Like he just looks devastated. Gutted. And he also kind of recognizes nothing is

Kim: 24:44

where he's like, acknowledged reality. So it's, that's the sort of the, the, the crisis is clear. It's like the turning point is He just got his ass kicked. You know, like, and you're there and you are like, cool, do it. And he's like, I can't do it. Like, the fact that he can't do it is like, cool. You can't, and then the crisis, are you gonna accept this or not? And in the moment of the reality of like, oh, I ha I kind of have to accept this. So that feels like, you know how like in a crisis is, or not a crisis in a climax, it's sort of like twofold. There's the decision and then there's the action. So it feels like he like realizes it, accepts it kind of like melts, you know, in depression.

Track 1: 25:24

And then Peter Parker puts him down. So he's standing on the ground and he's not fighting, he's not running out the window. He's not continuing to try to force the issue. He's just standing there.

Kim: 25:34

and then he gets wrapped up and then he yell. Then he asks his question, when will I know I'm ready? And then he gets the, he gets the thing stuck. The final piece of shush you know, like puts his over his mouth and then he answers him. And then he just has to sit there with that information, like, okay. Now what? You know, so, but yeah, I like, I like that the, the question of when will I know I'm ready is a clear demonstration that he has shifted, right. That his, his mindset has changed, that he's coming at this of a different angle. Like maybe I'll get, you know, because he still wants to go, you know, he would if they let him. So he just is like, okay, give me a little more, like, when, when can I, you know, like,

Track 1: 26:16

He starts the scene saying, I am ready. I am ready. Let me go. I am ready. And he ends the scene with when will I know I'm ready. Very clear contrast. And I love that about stories, getting that clear contrast in scenes, that's like fundamentally what

Kim: 26:32

I was thinking.

Track 1: 26:33

in scenes.

Kim: 26:34

I was noticing, um, because you had said like the question, the external question here is, can Miles save his friends? And in that scene specifically, they do a really great job of like renaming all of the global stakes of the whole thing. Like, okay, we're gonna save the friend. No, I gotta help. No, I'm gonna do it, but you'll die. But what about mj? But what, like, they do all of this stuff where they're able to like break it all down and like, yeah. If you just watched, you know, that scene and this next one, you're like, oh yeah, that's, it's basically, it's the microcosm of the entire story of which is always what you'll, I think what you'll find in those really key global, um, commandment moments. You know, like it becomes a microcosm for the scene. And I think this scene specifically the coming out of the all is lost and into the, you know, into the ending payoff, um, That That because it's where this internal shift happens. You know, it's where this is happening, that it's where you're gonna really, I mean, you're really, really, really gonna feel it. We're crossing that, that threshold and we're like, oh yeah, that's what the story's about, is this crossing this specific threshold in these life values.

Track 1: 27:48

We went down to our lowest low and now we're up to the highest high that we've seen. At any point in this movie so far, we can take it higher from there, but this is the highest contrast

Kim: 28:00

And the contrast of low to high of, you know, any time that you're gonna get that is always going to be,

Track 1: 28:06

high to higher is also exciting, but it's not the same. exciting. low to high.

Kim: 28:12

exciting because we had the low first. Like, now we're like, oh man, not only did we go here, but we went there. Cuz you're still, you're still experiencing that second highest high in relation to the lowest level that you've already, you're still looking at it in relation to that thing.

Track 1: 28:29

Yes. A really qualified person who then wins a prize is not exciting.

Kim: 28:35

Not exciting.

Track 1: 28:36

But a really determined person who wanted to do something, failed at it utterly, and then worked really hard to become qualified and then win a prize. Like they become qualified and then they win the prize. The prize is exciting because we saw the low, the the high of succeeding at saving his friends. Spoiler alert. For anyone who hasn't seen the movie, I don't know why you're listening to this episode if you haven't seen the movie, but spoiler alert, he does save his friends again. I feel like that is also a thing that we know is coming because we know Spider-Man and we know the Spider-Man story. So the way in which it's fun is by the surprises and by the specificity within these scenes. And so he does save his friends. The reason why we are excited that he saves his friends is because we watched him fail here. And you talk about how this scene restates all the stakes of the story. Uh, we could go off. And talk forever about all his lost moments. But one of the things that personally, I think, a great all is lost moment does is it makes you feel how badly you failed. And one of the ways that you can make it clear how badly you failed is to literally restate it. We failed on this head and this head and this head, and the consequences are that like, that's how badly we failed. And that's what this scene does. He literally states, these are all of the ways in which I failed.

Kim: 30:03

Yeah.

Track 1: 30:04

So which part of this sequence? So we've got his, he watches his uncle die, his spider friends, take him back to his room and prove to him, or force him to recognize in himself that he is not ready. He's tied to his chair. He's, he's sitting there for probably hours. We watched the sky pass, so the clouds pass on in the sky, so it's probably been a, a decent period of time. And then his dad comes to the door and he gives miles this emotional speech, which Miles cannot respond to because he's tied up, which

Kim: 30:42

He's got webs

Track 1: 30:42

exactly he's, he, he physically cannot, but that's, his dad doesn't know that. And so his dad is interpreting this as my son and I have already had a rift earlier in this movie, and now my son is refusing to respond to me. So this rift is deepening. So, and Miles knows that too. Like Miles knows

Kim: 31:01

Right. And he's trying, he rolls to the door like, so he is like, I can see your shadow moving around in there. And he like, you know, holds still, but he does go towards the

Track 1: 31:10

For a second he holds still. And I'm like, okay. So he's trying to play this as maybe dad won't think that I'm ignoring him cuz he'll assume I'm not in the room. Ah, shoot. He saw my shadow move. So like that plan's busted. Uh, so he does roll over the door and he, he, he is like engaging on every level that he can with this conversation and knowing that his dad hearing no response from him is being further gutted by this conversation. So he knows that even though he has no ability to do anything, the fact that he's not doing anything is hurting his dad. And his dad is restating to him all these things that he sees in Miles and kind of giving him this really heartfelt emotional pep talk.

Kim: 31:51

Yes. So what I was noticing in this is, you know, in, in the, the first podcast episode about this scene, you talked about going, you know, he kind of, he's going through this progression, um, where he, you know, he reaches Aunt May and like he gets validated and all that there. And, um, and I was seeing, so basically I was like, oh, yeah, it's just a progression of validation because even his friends were validating him, right? They validate him from the beginning of that scene where they're like, we've all lost someone, right? Like, I lost this per, like, they're validating his experiences, feelings. They're saying like, you know, so I love that he never actually isn't validated. Like he's never not supported. He's never not spoken, you know, spoken life into him or whatever, right? So his dad says a couple things, um, that I think are, well, I am really confident are, you know, Intentional choices by the writers in which to make us feel this way. Um, but yeah, so his dad is 100% validating him. He's, and he, what I love is that he's validating miles, right? Because he doesn't know the miles is Spider-man. He doesn't know that anything's happened. He's validating miles and he's says words like, you've got this spark, right? He talks about the spark and he says, it's amazing and it's yours, right? Like, do with it. Like, he's just like telling him, I see you son. And all those things that you thought I didn't see that like, were like, your uncle and I was saying was bad. Like basically right? He's saying, no, I see them. You have the spark, like I see you. And so he's doing all that. It's, you know, and his dad knows what's happened to his uncle and he's like, something happened and he's, but he can't, he won't tell him through the door. Like, so it's just like there's all this unstated ness, but then what he does say is just, yeah. And it's, it's just, it's beautiful. It's. It's a beautiful thing, and it's like that healing, that rift, um, between his, you know, him and his dad, or at least beginning to, you know what I mean? Seeing his dad, I think come over to his side in that way, like the, the olive branch or whatever. Like he's really humbling himself, you know, like, um, he's really, you know, and it's a very, um, yeah, it's just, it's highly meaningful.

Track 1: 34:07

One of the things that's coming to mind for me as you're talking about the ways in which his dad sees him being like his uncle is, I wonder if you would agree that his dad has kind of prescribed a route to success for him and he wants so badly for Miles to be successful because he sees that he can be, which is how he got him into this magnet school because he's really smart. He has the capacity to go really far and his dad is a by the book kind of guy. So he's pushing him into these structured, accepted roots to success and in, and that might feel kind of smothering to miles like, like that is boxing him in. It is a lot of

Kim: 34:55

a lot of pressure.

Track 1: 34:56

and his uncle is this creative outlet that doesn't have boundaries like that. And so for his dad to come and say, Your spark is yours. You get to choose what you do with it and whatever you do with it, you're going to be amazing. I know that you're going to be amazing is

Kim: 35:14

It's permission to be the way that he is and to not have to conform to just my, you know, dad's way of being or dad's path,

Track 1: 35:23

it's no longer conforming to a prescribed structure. It's permission for him to own himself. And one of the things that I find interesting about the whole structure of the different Spider-Man coming from different spider verses is that each one of them has unique powers. Like they're all different.

Kim: 35:48

Yes,

Track 1: 35:49

And so Spider-Man Miles doesn't have to do the things that the other spider people do in order to be successful. He has to own his own strengths.

Kim: 35:59

Yes. So from a very specific, uh, visual storytelling thing, the fact that this scene opens with his hands, the way they are on the webs behind him, on the chair, right? He's like holding onto them and there's like, he's stuck. There's nothing really going on. His dad says words like Spark, and then he gets the resolve, and then he literally has like the thing in him, right? It's so like, you know, it's the thing that we get when we do, you know, these sort of larger than life, whether it's superhero or certainly we talk about it in, you know, in any sort of like animated quote, like kids kind of story. Like the metaphors get to be really, really, really crystal clear and it's, and it's beautiful, right? So he has his literal sparks that he uses to free himself of. These constraints of like anyone telling him who he should be or that he is or isn't ready or whatever. Like, it's like, yeah. Right. Like, well, yeah, if you can break out of the, of all of this stuff, then I guess you are right. Like he's, he's able to do that for himself. Um,

Track 1: 37:06

Another,

Kim: 37:07

And shot for, shot to watch it go from no electricity to like, and then they go back to his hands and you're like, oh, there it is again. But now he has it.

Track 1: 37:15

and another thing that I think about when I'm going through sequences like this, and I think that this is not a hundred percent of what's going on because obviously in order to be. Skilled at a skill. It includes practice, like you have to practice something. But one of the things that I think about a lot of times is what is motivating the thing that you're doing? So when he was initially trying to tell everyone that he could go do the thing, he was motivated by desperation and revenge and loss, like his emotions were wrecked. That was not a place of strength for him to be coming from. And we could get into all kinds of questions. There are tons of stories about like, is revenge a beneficial motivator or is there something better that produces more, produces results that lead to greater flourishing across the board?

Kim: 38:12

Yeah. More agency. Right? Not just your agency to get what you want, but it's that. It's that selfless, creating more agency for others, right. Using your agency for others.

Track 1: 38:22

yes. And so, He is motivated by revenge and loss and, and desperation initially. And then he has to sit long enough for that, emo those emotions to settle down. They don't disappear, but they settle down. They're no longer leading the charge. And then his dad tells him how great he is, how he has this spark. And so he gets this new motivation, this new kind of emotional space of I can do itness, like I can do it. I can sit here, own myself and do the thing. So it's more like a determination and resolve than it is desperation and revenge and

Kim: 39:07

it feels very, um, like, uh, I don't know. Healthy, I guess to like, let's take a pause. Like if you have to tie yourself up in a chair with some spiderwebs to just sit with your emotions for a minute before taking an action. Like, fine. But like, it feels like a very good, like, like, when big things are happening, like, let's just take a minute.

Track 1: 39:29

Take three deep breaths. Mm-hmm.

Kim: 39:31

like, yeah, like let's do this thing and then let's get back. Cuz it's all about getting back to the truth, right? Like, because we're like, oh, I have to, it's like, do you though you don't have to, they can make choice. Like it's, you're projecting your attachment for a specific outcome onto reality and that always leads to suffering. Right? Like, it's like that's not gonna work.

Track 1: 39:52

And I started with like, Reaffirming that you do need practice. Because if you have never tried a new skill, then it doesn't matter how much deep breathing you do,

Kim: 40:01

Resolve. You have,

Track 1: 40:02

you're not going to be able to leap from tall buildings and fly like it's not going to work. there's a scene really early on right after Miles gets his spider powers where hears like spider people jump off buildings and he goes up to the top of a really tall building and he looks down and he almost jumps. And then it's a really funny scene where you see him going back down the building and he goes up to like a one or two story building and he is looking down off of that one. Like he's recognizing, you know, it doesn't,

Kim: 40:25

I am not ready

Track 1: 40:26

it doesn't matter how much faith he has in that scene, if he leaves off the building full of faith, he's not gonna survive. So he does need practice. And there's a, a whole, like he's got the whole movie to practice. He does practice, he does get mentored by Peter Parker. Peter Parker's not the most. Strategic structured mentor when it comes to teaching lessons. It's a very learning on the job chaotic kind of

Kim: 40:49

he swings through, you know, they have to go break in, they have to get the Uber from Doc O, like they have to go do all this stuff. And so there's all of these times when he's getting to practice, he had to be in, he had to go invisible

Track 1: 41:00

yes.

Kim: 41:01

you know, there was all those things that were happening.

Track 1: 41:02

he has practiced by the time he gets to this point, so he does have skills and the ability to use them. So what he's missing at this point is that emotional grounding that allows him to access them. And revenge and despair were the wrong emotions to fuel him. But when he can get to resolve and determination and a sense of self-confidence and ownership, that allows him to tap into his power on command and use it effectively. And so from there, it builds like that's that emotional underpinning. Of the action, I think connects ultimately to the message of a story like, can you accomplish your goal? When your goal, when your motivation for accomplishing it is fueled by revenge and despair. Miles was not successful. Can you accomplish your goal when your motivation for doing it is resolve and determination and trusting yourself and listening to your mentors and taking the leap of faith that you were told is the way to do it. Yes. That is how he's successful. That's how we create meaning under these stories. It's not just what he does, but how and why he does it.

Kim: 42:12

right? Yep. Yep. I was loving. So just following the like, he's just validated. He's never not validated. He just gets validated in new ways over and over again. When he shows up at Aunt May's and he goes to unlock and open the door, it just sends, it knows he's Spider-Man. So it just opens for him,

Track 1: 42:30

Oh, I hadn't even remembered that. Yes.

Kim: 42:32

yeah, I I was like, oh yeah. He's like, oh, it just opens Cause it's like, oh, hey, we know you. So I was like, there's another one, you know? And yeah, it was just great. It was like, There's just so many ways that he's, so then by the time he gets to the top of the building and he's ready to do it, like he's had all of this, he's had every event that has happened in the whole film up to this place of being like, okay, I don't know that I'm ready, but I, I'm, I think, you know, but he has, but he also does know, because he's been validated by all of these things. Like Aunt May is like, oh, they fit. Like she, he's got tools. He's not just willynilly running into the top of a building and jumping off like he's equipped, right. He has, and he's has the signs and the, all the things that have, are telling him, go for it Miles. You know, like, go for it. Like you can do it.

Track 1: 43:23

yes. Okay. Are we ready then to jump into this final scene and talk about him? Going like this, this preparation montage and him leaping off the building.

Kim: 43:35

Yeah.

Track 1: 43:35

Okay, perfect. So one of the things that I want to touch on here, let's start here, let's talk about why they do this. Cut back and forth between him facing the building and jumping off the building. And this preparation montage, like it's not a, it's, it's not told linearly, it's told cutting back and forth. So the first shot that we get is from the ground looking up at this building, this really tall tower. And then from there we see him going to Aunt May's. And then we cut back to him climbing, or I think on his way to the building. Then we cut back to Aunt Mays and then we cut to him climbing the building and he's back at Aunt Mays and he's preparing his, um, spider suit. And he's getting equipped, like she's telling him, took you long enough to get here. Um, and then I. We cut to him at the top of the building and then he leaps and while he's falling, there's one more cutback, which is him at Aunt May's house where she's giving him the, the spider slinger, the web slinger things to then says they fit perfectly. Made him myself, like they fit. He is equipped. And so that's that last one comes in the middle of his fall before we e as the viewer even know that he has web slingers. So what are your thoughts on why they decided to cut back and forth between that jump and that montage?

Kim: 45:00

So I think at this point it's all about narrative drive, right? So it's all to create the feeling of excitement in the audience. So it's it's using, it's raising questions, it's giving us it's mystery, right? Basically they're using mystery to, to create intrigue and excitement for us to like lean in and be like, oh my God, is he gonna make it or not? Um, which is a little bit, we get to suspense by the end. Cause Miles is like, am I gonna make it? But Miles knows that he has the web slingers and we don't. Right? So, so it's, it's putting us at the top of the building, you know, and he's got, he hasn't pulled his mask down on, he's got the hoodie, you know, he's standing there in his face and we're like, okay, whoa, what's going on? Oh, he went to Aunt May's. Like, and so it's, it's in putting us back and forth between those things, it is. I mean, visually it's creating energy because there's lots and lots of movement, which we've just had a long section of, you know, if you think about where we talk about, oh man, that's just like another two person scene and another two person scene and another two person scene. And we had another two person scene. You know, like sometimes if you have too much of the same thing in a row, which I don't think is really what they did here. I'm not saying that, but like, you know, because, you know, it's just, but it was still a lot of, a lot of, he's stuck. He's still, you know, um, he's, he's in his, we're, we've been in the dorm room for a while, you know, like we've been in one location. So they've done a lot of things to prepare the ground, you know, the groundwork for now that he's, he's out, he's jumped out the window, whatever, um, and he's on the move now we're moving. And so it, I think they use a lot of great visual cues to, to feel the movement that we get and the the, um, otherwise, cuz I think if you imagine if it was linear, like. I imagine they had a cut of it. Like you could, you could, you know, cut it that way and just see how it plays. So what would it be? He would, he would jump out the window. He would go to Anton May's. He would go inside. He would have to get the suit, he would do the thing. He would go, he would get to the building. He would look up, he would go up the stairs, he would get on the top, he would hear the thing again, and he, you know, all the voices or whatever, like, you can do it. And he would jump and then he would fall then he would do the web slinger. You know what I mean? So it's not that it wouldn't work. I, I think we would still get, um, an emotional whatever, but like, I don't think it would, would be, Bad or not, I think you would still feel the feels, because the feels have aren't just this scene, it's everything that's come before this scene. But I think because this is a film and because of the animation style that they're using and all of these pieces, using that narrative drive of wait, what, what's going on? And, and giving us like the kind of like, I don't know, I'm not sure. It gives us some, it builds up some emotion of, you know, I don't know, anxiety's not the word, but you know what I mean, of like anticipation. Yeah. That then gets to pay off when with the web slingers and everything like that. But we're like, you know, it just, it's keeping us off balance a little bit so that we're not quite sure what to expect. Um, and so it doesn't, it's not just like a clean cut, like he's ready now. It's like, it's letting us kind of experience that. So anyway, those are my perceptions.

Track 1: 48:19

I think that's great. I have several, I have three thoughts for you off of that. First off, um, the, if you cut it linearly, I started imagining as you're, as you were talking it through, what you would end up with is he paints his, his suit. That's super cool. She gives him his web slingers. That's super cool. Then he goes to the subway and he waits for, for a train and then he drives to the building and then he walks up the stairs and you know what's not super cool is waiting for a subway train. Like I think,

Kim: 48:52

So cuts out all the shoe leather. I hate I, that phrase is so confusing to me, but there's all this like extra

Track 1: 48:57

yes. It takes the extra and it uses it intentionally to build to something we know he's going somewhere. It's not that we were active and then we pause so we can wait for him to get somewhere.

Kim: 49:09

actually I wonder if the first shot of that scene. Is him actually standing on top of the building and the hoodie, cuz it's right before he pulls the mask down. So I think it goes to the, where he's on top and then I think it goes back and back and back and then brings us back to that moment. Then he pulls the mask and then goes like, I think that might be what it is,

Track 1: 49:28

Okay. Okay. I'm, I'm watching this through again.

Kim: 49:32

because as soon as you were saying, oh, it shows we're going somewhere and let me show you how we got there. Like, I mean, that's like, that's like a whole book narrative structure that, you know, let me show you. There's gonna be a moment that's gonna show up later. Let me walk you through all this. You know,

Track 1: 49:45

Yes. Uhhuh.

Kim: 49:46

you know, dual timelines or whatever. Um, and doing that just in a scene is really interesting.

Track 1: 49:51

Okay. So definitely the first shot is from the ground. You are looking from the ground up at the sky and lightning flashes in the sky and you're, it's like you're standing right at the base of a building and you're looking all the way up. So the whole screen is filled with the facade of this building, but then right after that, and we see the lightning flashing. Right after that, we cut to miles at the top of the building. Breathing

Kim: 50:13

his face.

Track 1: 50:14

his, with his hood, his face. He's not, he doesn't have his mask on. He's, we're just looking at him. We've got sky behind him. He's breathing hard. We don't have enough context in that shot to know

Kim: 50:24

You're not really sure where he is

Track 1: 50:26

And then we cut to him walking into the shed, aunt May's shed, and he doesn't have his hoodie on. So it's clearly not the same moment. So now we're starting that back and forth of the, the, the moment, the, the moment that he jumps to the preparation to get here. And because we intersperse things like waiting for the train with the, uh, shots of the preparation in Aunt Mays. I think we carry that same sense of anticipation into even those less exciting, those moments that are inherently less exciting. But when you put them in the context of this, meaning they feel like, oh my goodness, we're going somewhere. As opposed to,

Kim: 51:06

mean, and the song they use is so amazing. What's up? Danger? It's like, ugh. I just feel like, and, and, and the voiceover that's happening, like, you just, if you're not feeling chills, like I don't know what to tell you. Like,

Track 1: 51:20

So the next, the next thing that I wanna do with this, so I've got two, two more thoughts on this like split thing. First off, could you define for everyone narrative drive and what you mean by mystery? So, mystery, suspense, and, um,

Kim: 51:35

Yeah.

Track 1: 51:35

dramatic

Kim: 51:35

So narrative drive, right? Narrative drive is just the way we handle information, um, with the reader. So it's what the reader knows at any given time compared to what the character knows, what the protagonist knows, the point of view, character, whatever. So it's what does, cuz you know, the author knows all right? Um, but the reader only knows what the author tells them. And then the protagonist only knows what the author allows them to know, um, based on all the events in the story. So, When you have suspense, um, the term suspense, which this is, I'm using the term suspense purely in the context of narrative drive. People use the word suspense in different contexts, that means something else. So that's just not relevant to what I'm trying to say. But basically in this case, it's just what I, what the reader knows and what the protagonist knows in relation to whatever is currently being talked about is the same information. Like, we don't know what's behind that door. Neither do they, you know, okay, we're gonna reach for the doorknob and open it and we don't know what's coming. We have no idea what's there. Right. So that would be where we are. On the same, we have the same level of information. Um, a mystery is when the protagonist point of view, character, whatever, has more information, um, than the reader does. So they're, you know, they know something we don't, and they're, and so that is a, that is, um, Creates intrigue. Like we're like, Hmm. And it only works. It only works if you indicate to the reader that the protagonist knows something that you don't like. You have to give us enough information for us to raise questions and wonder and then to go, oh, they know the answer. And I don't know the answer. Like that is what's intriguing. Cuz we know the answer is coming. Otherwise we think, well, I don't know. They must not know either. And we think we're in suspense, which is just a different energy than mystery.

Track 1: 53:26

It's a different energy, and then when the answer is revealed and they know it, we're like, well, that wasn't set up. We didn't know that they knew that.

Kim: 53:34

Like, hey cheaters. Yeah, exactly. And it can, it can feel, depending on the story, depending on all of the specifics, it can feel, it can feel unsatisfying. Um, so yeah. So delivering an. You always have to give the reader information always, no matter what you, or always having to give them information. And it's just what information are you giving them? How are you giving it to them? When in what, you know, all of those pieces. And then also compared to, but what does the character know? Um, dramatic irony is one of my favorites. Um, because it's when the reader actually knows more information than the protagonist point of view, character, whatever. And so it's when you know, okay, so go back to that scenario of, uh, you know, we're going to the, to the walking up to this door and we're like, whoa, what's up? I don't know what's behind that door. And neither does the protagonist, but then the. Camera. It's very Hitchcock, right? The camera, whatever it switches to go, it shows you the big whatever awful monster thing that's behind the door. And then we're like, oh my God, it's back there. And then the, we go back to the point of view of the protagonist and they're like, it's fine. I'll just, let me get it. I'll answer it. You know, what're like, no, don't do it. Like we have dread or whatever. Like we're having an emotional experience that they are not having. Cuz they dunno, they might not be afraid. They think it's normal.

Track 1: 54:56

So a scene in this movie that is chock full of dramatic irony and knows it and leans in all the way is the scene early on in the movie when Miles is painting graffiti under the, the, the tunnels of the city. And there's a glowing spider that's crawling around in the rafters and it's like a five minute long scene. It's so like, It ev we know everything in this story is intentionally crafted. This was so clearly intentionally crafted. You get five minutes or so of tension of he is spraying this, this graffiti on this wall, and the spider is crawling up his pants leg and then it's in his hood, and then it is on his hand, and then it's on the can. And then pop. He knocks the lid off the can and the spider falls on the ground. Like it does that like three or four times all the way through the scene. And you're the whole way. We've known Spider-man. We know that that spider is going to transform

Kim: 55:47

It's going

Track 1: 55:48

He, it will bite him. He is, it will change his life. And so we're sitting here the whole time going. The spider is on you,

Kim: 55:53

like dies. It like just dies so easily afterwards.

Track 1: 55:56

Right? He just knocks it off. So the moment at the end of the scene?

Kim: 56:01

and it like goes, doesn't it go super zoom in on its fangs and it's like bites him. And he's like, ah. And he like knocks it away and it's like, doesn't even face him at all. And

Track 1: 56:09

We get this. So, so in that moment, like we've waited the whole entire scene for him to get bitten. He finishes drawing, he finishes spray painting the mural, the music is done. Like the song that was, this whole montage has ended. He and Uncle Aaron are just standing back watching it. We're like, wait a second. What happened to the spider. We know that that's what this scene is about. And the spider never bit him, and he's picked up his bag. Uncle Aaron's walked away and he's about to walk out the door, and then he looks down and there's this spider on his hand, and that's when we're like, there it is the spider. And you get this, this big super closeup shot where the spider's f go in his hand and we get like this three panel, boom, boom, boom. Like we're watching a comic book of the closer, closer, closer view of the spider, and then it goes inside his body. We get the, we watch the venom go into his veins, we watch his veins pulse, we watch his red blood cells start to change, and then it zooms back out to the screen of like outside his body. We're watching him. He looks at it completely on face and just swipes it off his hand and it falls down dead. So that there's so much dramatic

Kim: 57:09

the traversing your expectations in that. That's humor. Like that's comedy, right? Like, you're like, oh, you think it's this, and then it just totally reverses it on you. Oh my gosh. It's so funny because we, it makes us, it's, it's so entertaining in that moment for it to be this buildup and then like this hilariously anti climactic like thing, and yet we know it's still coming.

Track 1: 57:31

It's still coming. This is still a Spider-Man movie, and that is what's really tricky about stories that we have heard many times is that we know the story. So you have to find an interesting way to tell something we haven't seen before when we know we've seen it before. And so that scene, they did that by using dramatic irony, leaning all the way in. That's what this movie does really well, is lean all the way into the fact that we've heard this movie, this story four dozen times. And so with that knowledge, we will play with the fact that the audience knows what's coming and we will show you what's coming and then not do what you expect with it.

Kim: 58:11

It's so

Track 1: 58:12

It's so good. It's so good. So now that we have all those terms, we've know what our, what our narrative drive is here in this scene. The next thing that I want to highlight in this cut back and forth between the, the view of the tower and the view of miles and his montage is value shifts. These are some of my favorite things. Uh, I talk about them all the time. My clients get tired of me talking about value shifts cuz I'm like, you know, it's coming. I'm about to bring up some value shifts. So the, the, the value in this scene. The external, the internal value is so, so powerful. Like that's what we're here for is the internal change. There are so many values that you could state for that internal change. When he goes from failure to triumph, when he goes from self-doubt to self-actualization, like there are so many things that happened in this scene that it was honestly challenging for me to figure out what's the external value. Clearly a lot changes in this scene externally, but I'm so focused on the internal, this internal is so powerful that I almost missed what the external was. Kim, the external value is, is so beautifully pictured in the opening image of this scene. I would say that the external value of this scene is on the ground to in the air, and the opening image of this scene is on the ground, looking up at the tower, feet on the ground, like literally on the ground. We're looking up at the sky, looking up at the tower. There's. No clearer way to communicate groundedness than him literally being on the ground like he is on the ground all the way through the preparation montage. He is on the ground when he's standing on the tower, but that's not what any of those moments focus on and make you feel as a re as a viewer. Like that image of looking up at the tower from the ground emphasizes on the groundness so, so powerfully. So then when we get into the air, we've been prepped with that view of on the Groundness. And one of the things that I talk about with scenes all the time is that your first half of the scene, your goal in the, the everything leading up to the turning point crisis in climax is to emphasize the beginning value. So everything leading up to the moment when he has his turning point in his crisis, your point is to emphasize. The beginning value that he's on the ground and the fact that before that this, this whole scene opens with a visual of being on the ground is really powerful.

Kim: 1:00:56

Yeah, well, and then, and even, and all of those. So then all of those previous, you know, the cut the cutback parts of him. Walking up to, you know, aunt May's walking up to the shed. You know, he's, he's waiting, he's got his feet on the ground waiting for a subway. Like, there's all of those different ways, and actually I pretty sure, I'm pretty sure when he is spray painting his suit, it really shows him spray paint the feet

Track 1: 1:01:20

Yes, it does. It does.

Kim: 1:01:22

are gonna be the same feet that are no longer touching the ground. Like, that's really funny. I, I was like, oh, those are the feet. But as now you're saying it, I'm like, oh, the feet were a thing.

Track 1: 1:01:31

Yes, Yes, Which is where you started us off with every single choice they made is really

Kim: 1:01:37

it's a choice.

Track 1: 1:01:39

Every single choice is really intentional.

Kim: 1:01:42

one visual thing that I'm, that I'm thinking of, which goes more like, you know, the sequence, it's more of the, you know, cuz it's, it's why this, this, you know, however many minutes, 10 minutes or whatever of, of the film. Um, you know, from his uncle dying through his friends being like, sorry, miles, you gotta stay to dad. Talking to him, to going to this thing. Like that whole section, um, you know, specifically like going from like someone else's webs, like someone else's webs have tied you up and silenced you, right? Like, because, you know, for your own good, right? Like blah, blah, blah. Like, but he's trapped in those webs and the fact that we see his hands and like he can't get out of them, then he's able to break out with his own spark. And now not only is he not trapped in webs, but now he's using his own, they fit perfectly. Like he's got his own, you know, just going from that trapped, imposed upon like, mm, I can't, can't think of the right word, but it's, you know, controlled,

Track 1: 1:02:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Kim: 1:02:50

you know, he's been limited, um, that kind of thing to. To breaking out of that, breaking out of other people's expectations, whether he, like, we don't expect for you to survive, we don't expect for you to succeed. We don't expect for you to do this. Or we ex, you know, whether, whatever those expectations are, depending on who the mentor is at any given moment. Like for him to just free of those things. So it's, it's interesting, like on the ground, in the air as a very specific shift for that scene or part of a scene or, no, this, that part of the sequence, the ending of the, you know, him actually like, I'm going now, like I'm doing it now. I'm act I'm, I'm externally actualizing this internal shift. Um, yeah. But just. The, that he actually isn't really touching the ground at all. It's the web. The web is then to be the thing that is, he has to put faith in this other thing, this other part of him. Now this, you know, um, and that's the thing that gr that attaches him to the building. You know, it's just, it's interesting like

Track 1: 1:03:59

And in the cutting back and forth bit, we don't even see aunt may give him the web slingers until he's already falling.

Kim: 1:04:09

yeah,

Track 1: 1:04:10

that is mystery. No, that is

Kim: 1:04:14

yeah. Mystery.

Track 1: 1:04:15

That is mystery.

Kim: 1:04:16

Yeah. Cuz Miles knows, Right, Miles already knows, you know, when he's climbing the building, he knows he's got the web slingers right. When he is doing that, like he knows that,

Track 1: 1:04:25

And the viewer doesn't know We make, we can make the assumption cuz it's Spider-Man. We know that if Spider-Man jumps off a building, that's how he's going to rescue himself. But we haven't seen that. He's been given that until that moment.

Kim: 1:04:35

right. Right. So random question, it's because I don't remember earlier in the scene or earlier in the film when he goes to the super tall building and then we see him walk back down and then he goes to another building that's not as tall. What is it that he does after that on that building?

Track 1: 1:04:52

So we just pulled up that scene. The scene where he initially plans to jump off a building. Really early on in the movie, he's just gotten his Spider-Man powers. He realizes he's Spider-Man. He opens up a Spider-Man comic and what does Spider-Man do in the comics? He jumps off tall buildings. So he goes up to a tall building and there's this really intense moment where we've got powerful music. He's about to jump off the building. Like Spider-Man. We get a good like 10 or 15 seconds of watching him, him prepare to jump and then it cuts to him running

Kim: 1:05:21

Music cuts.

Track 1: 1:05:22

It's complete silence. He's running back down the building,

Kim: 1:05:26

little shoes on the, oh my gosh.

Track 1: 1:05:28

and then he looks around, he's like, there's a tall building. There's an even taller building. There's a really tall building. That's a nice short building, And he goes, we get him running up the stairs again to this really short building and he the same build of, um, of energy that he's going to jump. And he finally, he runs, he runs, he's about to jump. I would guess that he's trying to jump to the building across the way and he trips on his shoelaces so he doesn't make it. He flails in

Kim: 1:05:54

He's not prepared. He's not ready.

Track 1: 1:05:57

is not ready. And then he bounces off a bunch of different surfaces because this is an animated movie and not live action. And so nobody dies in the scene, which they definitely wouldn't come out well in this movie if the, it was live action. So, uh, I'm thinking of who called Roger Rabbit and the fact that tunes can do anything. Um, So he falls down on the ground and hurts his leg and he crushes something in his pocket and we pulls it out. It's the goober, it's the thing that he had been told by the previous Peter Parker, put this thing in the thing. It'll save the world. Don't put the thing in the thing. The world blows up. So he's broken the goober. So that's our parallel to the

Kim: 1:06:40

Right. And it ends with him laying on the ground. Like, look, in fact, he's like, he holds up the broken goober and we see the sky behind him, right? Then the going, looking up the building, right? Like there's that picture of how tall everything is, and the goober's broken and, and then it shifts back to him just like from above looking down at him, sprawled out, laying on the ground. Like, so just the, all of the things in that scene. Oh, and specifically it has the, the, ah, when he falls, right? And then now the, the scene we've been talking about when he is equipped and he is ready and he is self-actualizing, um, it is the opposite in every way, right? Like everything about it is the opposite. And so having that other scene exist in the story earlier is a setup for this moment. Um, I'm wondering if they have a moment, do they show him tying his shoes? Because it feels like they should show him tying his shoes. Um, when he gets dressed or something, does he tie his shoes and then put the, you know what I mean? Cause it's like, I'm not letting this crap happen to me again. Like, I don't know if it is or not, but I don't remember it specifically, but it feels like a, almost like a, a throwaway thing that you could do. Like just show him like, boom, I'm ready. You know? It's like one of those things that we do when we

Track 1: 1:07:59

well, I, I wonder if it's, that would be like, I wonder if that would be why they, one of the reasons why they foregrounded him, spraying his feet so much.

Kim: 1:08:11

Cuz those things cover his shoe laces.

Track 1: 1:08:14

his shoes look like they're on the outside of his costume, so I'm, I'm scrolling through and I don't think that there's a moment where he ties his shoes, but you're right. If they had done that, it would

Kim: 1:08:24

could, it's, you know, it makes sense. And just now, like, looking back at this scene and comparing it's. It's funny, like that would be funny. Like double not the shoe, you know what I mean? Like cut all music and just show him like tying it a lot of times. Okay. Back into the music,

Track 1: 1:08:41

Although, see, I think might, that might actually be one of the reasons they didn't do that in this, because the goal in this final scene is not humor. We're trying to get fully serious. He's owning himself, so there are no comedy bits in

Kim: 1:08:57

right.

Track 1: 1:08:58

In this montage. It's all, it's, and that's another thing about the value shift. This is so clear that the groundedness is this, the origin value. It's not like it's clear that groundedness is the origin. It's also clear that the determination and resolve are origins. It's clear that this validation and like ownership of identity are the starting values. It's not like fumbling this, like think that fumbly would be something that would come into play if they showed him tying his shoes or self-doubt or, or thinking, looking backwards. That's not what's going on here. So that's not at play here.

Kim: 1:09:39

Yeah.

Track 1: 1:09:41

So then he, so we've talked all about that preparation montage and cutting back and forth, and now let's talk about the jump. So while we're here talking about this jump, let's talk about how the Five Commandments work in this scene. So where would you start this scene?

Kim: 1:10:03

Well, I start the scene his dad shows up, like I'm taking it as a, a longer piece I think. Um, cuz so I was looking at it as, um, yeah. So to me, His friends have left him. He's, he's accepting whatever he's sitting there. He is all slumped in his chair at the time. You know, the clouds go by, whatever, it's later, and then dad shows up at the door. Um, and that being the inciting incident for him. Um, and then all of these, you know, all of the validation starts there, right? It's all of this validation that's happening. Um, his, his, the resolve of, he breaks out, right? He uses his power to break out. And so it's like in that moment, it's weird. Okay. So I was thinking about this earlier. It's one of those things that like the weightedness of a commandment inside a scene, I think. Correlates with where the weightedness of the scene itself sits as a commandment in an act, or as a commandment in the global story. So I think this entire section, because we've had the turning point of the story, well, the negative, you know, the, the all is lost because we've had that, we've realized, you know, who our uncle is, we've lost our uncle. Um, we know that kingpin is the one that killed him. We have all of those, all of those negative feelings. And then we experience the failure of being able to actualize because we've had that negative downturn that sits, puts us in. The s lost, it's automatically kind of at a place where you're like, so what are you gonna do? You know, like, are you gonna stay here? So we're, we're in that, we're in this sort of crisis aspect of the global story of like, is Miles done? Is he out? Is he gonna do it? Is he gonna save his friends? You know, um, everything they've talked about in that scene, like it all sets it up for like, Is Miles going to do it or is Peter Parker gonna die because he had to step in and save everybody? So it's, it's makes the entire sequence a crisis sequence globally. It's the crisis of the story. Um, and so, so I, it feels like the crisis vibe kind of hangs over the entire thing. So it gets a little weird to go, well, where does the crisis really start or end? Or where does this or that? Because the whole thing is basically a global crisis, so you can feel it happening all the way through. Um, so, so I like, so I guess I can, I can see how it can be separate scenes, um, where you would go, dad showing up his whole conversation, then okay, dad says those things to him and says, I love you. You don't have to say it back. And then he walks away. Now it's like, okay, turn. Okay, you got all this stuff now Dad's gone. Now what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Um, and then he makes, he has his own little crisis there. Climax resolution. He, he uses his powers, he does break free and he gets to use all of his powers in that moment, right? To be invisible so his friend doesn't see him. And he, he goes, right. So that, so you can see that as an arc of commandments, of inciting incident, progressive complications, turning point, crisis, climax resolution. He's out, he's free, he's out, he's on the move, he can go do whatever he wants, and then he chooses to go to Aunt Mays to go get equipped to go do this thing. So what it ends up feeling like though, to me, is that the rest of that scene or the rest, that second the scene now that we're looking at about going to the building, going from grounded on the ground to, in the air feels like, because it's a climax of that sequence, because it's the climax of the, the, the middle build, right? It. The whole thing feels like a climax. And so, yeah, within it we can see inciting incidents, progressive, you know, you can see all of those pieces that are small, you know, the smaller units of that, that create the whole thing. So when I was first watching it, it feels like a climax of the scene with his dad. And then, but if I, but yeah, but looking at it, but then it's, and it's like, it's like there's a moment when he gets, you know, go back and forth cuz he's just, he's on his way, he's doing the thing. I think it's because, Hmm, gimme a second. It's like he goes to Aunt May's and gets all of his stuff. He gets equipped, positive, progressive complications happening. Right? He has to ride the train, he's gotta get there. He is gotta go up the stairs. He's gotta be up at the top. and and it's interesting because now. Because we took a minute and we went and looked at those other scenes, he could go back down the stairs. Like that's an option, right? So now that you're here at the top, that is really the turning point. Like you're saying, you're going from the groundedness to now I'm actually on top of the building. Am I going to jump or not? Am I going to complete this thing? This idea that I had back when I was tied up in the chair before I decided to use my powers to break out. Like it's because the, the, the idea of this thing originates there, it's feel, but it's also arcs within our, you know, it's just all cohesive together. So

Track 1: 1:15:37

Yes. You just identified exactly why I struggled with this so much when I was first preparing for this for the last podcast episode. I shuffled through multiple potential turning points and crises and climaxes and, and the way that I think about turning points is. The moment where things most obviously clearly change, they're different. So like there's this clip that Sean Coin showed us at one of the editor trainings where there's this caravan of people and they're going to a battle in the woods and they're planning to go fight. So we we're on our way in the caravan and there's a lot of conversation and tension, all kinds of stuff going on. We get there, there's been an ambush and there's a giant ball of fire rolling down the hill. So they go from driving into the combat to ball of fire, turn around in reverse, they're leaving the forest. So when I am looking for turning points, I'm thinking about that visual. What is the ball of fire that's rolling down the hill? That

Kim: 1:16:44

Hmm.

Track 1: 1:16:45

such a clear, sharp, we were going forward, now we're going backward. Like that's so visually clear. So that's why initially I got stuck on the most clear change. For me in just the context of the scene, uh, just, uh, just the context of the progression of him going from the bottom of the building to the top of the building with that montage in there. The most clear change for me is when his webs catch and he starts swinging, like the

Kim: 1:17:16

Oh, that's so interesting. Right.

Track 1: 1:17:18

y you pointed out that that doesn't cause him to have a crisis choice

Kim: 1:17:23

Yeah. That's a resolution, right? That's The yeah.

Track 1: 1:17:26

resolution of his crisis choice is that they catch and he swings. So he doesn't die. He swings and we are in the tension of is he or is he not going to swing for 30 seconds? I timed it for 30 seconds. We watched him fall. So then the thing that bothered me was, If that's not the turning point, then his crisis is jump or don't jump. That's a very clear decision if I don't see a ball of fire. The second thing that I look for in the scene is the moment a character makes a decision, what is the biggest decision that they have to make? And the biggest decision he has to make is jump or don't jump. But what bothered me about that, if the scene starts at the bottom of the building and he goes through that whole preparation montage, that's where I was starting the scene. And the reason why I was starting the scene there is because it's a location change and a set of characters change and a time change, which are three, like loose boundaries. Those are not the actual definitions of the scene, but they are clues that

Kim: 1:18:23

but they're helpful.

Track 1: 1:18:23

to find, okay, where does something start and stop?

Kim: 1:18:26

Yeah, and it feels like, it feels like when it comes to an analyzing scenes, it is always just, well, what constraints are you putting on it? Like, What are you choosing to measure? Because it's all relative, right? So when you decide, oh, I'm gonna measure, I'm gonna look for a arc of change. Within this measure of story, you'll find one. You know what I mean? It just might be smaller or larger. So it's never wrong. It's just how useful is it to what you're actually trying to like figure out.

Track 1: 1:18:54

And I recommend those. I've, I've described them here on the podcast, in my episode on scenes. If you go to alice suler.com/eight, you'll find the episode where I talk about how I use those boundaries. And the reason why I recommend them, especially to writers who haven't done a lot of scene analysis, is because they're more obvious and visual, you can spot them more quickly than spotting, okay, what is the inciting incident that kicks off the action here? That's, that can be trickier to spot until you start like really learning how to walk, walk, like, walk through the action and analyze those things. So now that I had chosen. At the base of the building, the scene begins. What choice does he make? The thing that bothered me was it feels like he makes the choice to jump as soon as he finishes the conversation with his dad from the second, the one-sided conversation from the second that he gets that glint in his eye and he pops the webs with his energy, I'm like, choice is made. He's going to go jump. So where does that leave the whole other chunk of story, like what is the rest of the chunk of story there? And then we talked about how all he's got all that internal dialogue going on in his head as he's going up the up the building, which is. One of the things that is beautiful about books that you don't get as easily in movies is you get deeply engrossed into the character's head in a book. And in this, the directors were like, we can't lose that. So we have to put voiceover in here so that we can hear his thoughts. Like, we've got to hear what's going on in Miles's head in this scene because it's that important. So he goes up the building and he is, he's, he's on the cusp of jumping, and I'm thinking the decision is already made. He's already decided to jump. But in the context of that scene from earlier in the movie, you make the exact perfect point. He could walk down the stairs, he's done it before. He's literally done

Kim: 1:20:51

It's always an option.

Track 1: 1:20:52

We know

Kim: 1:20:52

At no point,

Track 1: 1:20:53

way out is,

Kim: 1:20:54

at no point is it irreversible yet everything about this is irreversible. He could go back home to his dorm room, he could go back. Nothing about this is irreversible. So it's, so, it's getting to, it's the final, the final moment before you, you can no longer put off this decision. So the, even though, you know, he's decided, you know, we know that he's determined, he's gone through all of this stuff. He's clearly taking action. He's clearly in a climactic phase of the sequence where he's making decisions and actions and he's going in a direction towards a goal. And, but it's like there is a moment of hesitation. Like he pauses at the top of the building. Like he's standing there, right? He's standing there. He gets to the edge, he pulls down the mask. Like there's there. That is when you know, Maybe we're not, um, experiencing it as directly with him in that moment of all of everything. But it's also like we don't have to, everything he's felt earlier when he stood at the top and he fumbled around and he was afraid. It's like those feelings don't go away. But he's got composure now and he's focused now and he's just doing it differently. And we also hear in his interiority the voiceover about, you know, how am I gonna know when I'm ready? You don't know. You'll never know. It's a leap of faith. And so it's like he doesn't know that this is going to work. It's not a sure thing he has to acknowledge. I don't know how this is gonna go, but every, all of the validation that I have received in the last however many minutes gives me enough faith to leap. Right? And so it's that final, that final moment of you could turn back, but I'm not going to.

Track 1: 1:22:40

And I'm just gonna read for you all the dialogue that happens in that interiority as he's going up the building. So, First off, he gets to Aunt May's house and she says, took you long enough. So that's not in his head. That's her literally saying, took you long enough. Which is validation, this expectation that he

Kim: 1:22:56

She always expected him to come back. She saw it in him from the date, from day one. Yeah.

Track 1: 1:23:00

And then in his mind, we hear his dad say, I see this, this spark in you. It's amazing. Whatever you choose to do with it, you'll be great. And then his mom says, our family doesn't run from things. And then his dad says, you are the best of all of us. Miles. You're on your way. Keep going. And Miles says, when do I know I'm Spider-Man? And Peter Parker says, you won't. That's all it is. Miles a leap of faith. Those are all saying. You have what it takes. We don't run away, we don't go back down the building. We know that the way forward is to keep going off the building. It is a leap of faith, like that's what that is saying. He, he has the spark. He will not run down the building, he's gotta go up the building and he's gotta take a leap of faith. Literally walks that through that in his interiority. And then in the middle of the jump, while we're waiting for him to fall, we get the last line, which is made of myself. They fit perfectly, which is where we hear he is prepared. In the middle of the tension where we watch him flail it goes back, goes back and forth between him flailing and him beautifully diving in that tension, we hear that he is equipped, she's got the, the web slingers and she made, they fit perfectly.

Kim: 1:24:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love it. And I love too that like in all of this, this in, you know, internal dialogue that's happening, it really does feel like it is shifting, like you were saying from, it's clarifying that the reason why he's doing this isn't for ego, isn't for revenge, it isn't for any of those things. It's like, this is who he is and this is what's. His friends need him to be like, this is, you know, it's, it's this combination of, I was born for this, you know, and I, some crazy shit happened to me. like I got a radioactive spider bit my hand. Weird. I lost my uncle. Ah, you know, like all of these things, my friends are gonna die if I don't do this. So there's all of this stuff that's happening that's still true, and yet he's able to actualize from a place of self-love, right. Rather than a place of, um, of fear or from a place of anger, right? Which is just another version of fear. Like all of the, you know, he's shifted to, to owning that power, right? So it's, it's gorgeous.

Track 1: 1:25:21

yes it is. So he jumps. There are a few, there are a few, uh, movie visuals that I want to highlight that I didn't even realize when I was originally doing this, that I started learning as I dug into and read some more articles. First off, when he jumps, he's. He's crouching on the side of the building. So at first he's sitting on top of the building and then he climbs onto the glass on the side of the building. So he is on a vertical plane stuck to the building with his hands and his feet. And when he jumps, he pushes himself off with his feet and he sores out into the air and the glass under his hands breaks. So he pulls the glass away with him, and that is his fingers get sticky when he's afraid and they don't unstick before he jumps. He's jumping afraid. The fear doesn't go away. So that's a visual of him jumping while afraid, but still jumping in his leap of faith. So that's a really intentional visual. And then he falls and we get 30 seconds of falling, and we get multiple angles of falling. We get the triumphant soaring directly up into the sky. We get. Which I read an article that said that that was actually one of the, maybe the first image that they created of the whole movie was him going up into the skyline, uh, not falling, but ascending. Um, and then him flailing on his way down, and then this boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom of him shooting down in a comic book style and. Then him looking back up and shooting his webs, and we wait, we zoom out and we watch this little teeny tiny web catch on the top of the building. And then he swings. And when he swings, the whole screen basically goes from blue to yellow because we've stopped looking at the darkness of the building and the sky. And now we're, we're surrounded by this bright yellow of the street lamps, which feels like a visual triumph. Like it feels to me like that's your trophy, this golden award. Um, so we've got these yellows and reds that are very vibrant and alive and a award and celebratory. And the, um, the animation They intentionally have miles at a slower frame rate. I don't know if I'm using correct movie terms at a slower frame rate from all the other Spider-Man through the whole entire movie. So he looks a little bit jerkier and a little bit slower than all the other Spider-Man. And when he hits this, when he starts swinging, his frame rate speeds up to the same rate as the rest of them. So

Kim: 1:28:08

Hmm. That's

Track 1: 1:28:10

like animation wise, he goes from being slightly behind and slightly slow to swinging like the rest of them. What's also really cool, I don't know if you've seen the new movie yet, the second movie,

Kim: 1:28:19

No, I have not.

Track 1: 1:28:20

but they, I mean it's not a spoiler to say, they go across the spider verse, you encounter more

Kim: 1:28:25

They do. I had no idea

Track 1: 1:28:27

Right.

Kim: 1:28:28

if only the subtitle of the film had told me

Track 1: 1:28:34

Well, they do the same thing with that movie where they have some characters at a different frame rate and they like design different animation visually to capture different movements. It's very, very

Kim: 1:28:47

Well, and it's different realities, right? They're different universes. So it makes sense that things are

Track 1: 1:28:52

Every universe is animated differently. It's really, really cool.

Kim: 1:28:55

that's super cool. So one thing I wanted to point out, uh, that I noticed that I think helps, um, okay, so when he's falling, they, um, it keeps the tension up for us is because it shows the people walking on the street pause and look up and they're aware that he is falling, right? So that is, so just the idea of having an, um, third party observers looking at him of like, and I think we as a viewer, you acknowledge the horror that they're experiencing in that moment of being like, whoa, oh my God, someone's falling from a building. Like, ah, are they gonna be okay? Like that? Anticipation of horror there. And then, um, and then also the like, amazement of once he starts doing it, you know, once he, he attaches and swings like the people in the cars. Like he runs on the side of the building and the people in the office are like, whoa. It's like, whoa, spider-Man's back, right? Like, spider-Man's not dead. You know, like, like this is like, like, so it's just, so all of that was really cool. But I, I loved, I was like, oh, it's not just like, look how far down. Look, there's people walking, like that's, we're above them and we can see people walking. It's, they stop and turn and look at him. And that does something for us visually. Like it connects us to the, the emotion of, ah, is it gonna work? And then who shit works. And we're like, whoa. Like to be there on the street to watch that happen. Like, it's just interesting how much those little moments convey and add to our, our viewer experience.

Track 1: 1:30:34

Yes. Yes. Very intentional. Every shot in that 32nd fall, everything is designed to increase tension in like two dozen different ways. Every single shot increases it in a new way, or like five new ways. Yes, because it is horrifying to see someone jump off a building. Like I thought for a second when I was looking down at those people, and one of the times that I re-watched the scene, I was like, that is a nightmare scenario. Like that's a bad thing. Anytime that we have ever heard of someone jumping off a building and that is a terrible, terrible thing. So to be the person on the ground looking up at that would be horrifying. Like, like thinking this person. It's terrible that they ended up at the top of this building in whatever mental and emotional state that they're in. And it's terrible for me that I am the person who happens to be on the ground at the moment when this is happening. Like this is all levels of bad. So then it switches to triumph. He swings, he, he leapt, he made his leap of faith and he swings. So we've made it through the whole scene. Is there anything after that moment that you wanted to talk about?

Kim: 1:31:45

He lands again

Track 1: 1:31:47

Yes, that's it.

Kim: 1:31:48

and he takes his mask off again and it's like, you know, it's this different, it's this different feeling.

Track 1: 1:31:56

Yes. We see his own awe and recognition of what he's just done. Like he's aware of how monumental this was, and we get that little breath of resolution to our resolution where we acknowledge how big that was. And then he jumps in like he keeps going. That

Kim: 1:32:16

Then it's like, oh no big deal. N B D, I've done it before. Now I'm just, now I do this thing. So yeah, I think that moment when he lands.

Track 1: 1:32:24

Okay, well we've walked through this whole scene, which is fantastic. Had a great time breaking it down. Is there anything that, before I wrap us up, is there anything that you would suggest for writers to capture the same kind of emotional experience that this scene does? Because obviously the tools that they use in the scene are very visual, which is not what we, their visual, their audio, their animation, colors, music, all of that. Writers don't use those tools, but we use different tools to accomplish the same thing. Like this scene, this moment of story is something we also accomplish in writing. So do you have any thoughts or advice for writers on how to accomplish this?

Kim: 1:33:13

So it starts from, you know, the, the foundation of what the story that you're even telling, right. Why are you telling the story that you're telling? So I feel like creating moments like this in a scene, in a moment, in a very specific way, it's, it has to you, it goes all the way back to like globally. Like what are you doing? Like what is the, you know, it's like every, every tool and principle and. Every aspect of your story that has happened, like all work together to create this fundamental moment, which we pointed out so many times. Like, oh, all the things that came before this moment, all the setups early on, you know, all of these things. Having all that, they have to know that this moment is going to happen and how they want you to feel in this moment. They have to know that in order to know what to tell you first, like all the information they give you and they set it all up so that you can have this transformational experience. So anytime a transformation, a value shift, anything, it's a very distinct before, during, and after, right? It's beginning, middle, and end. It is a pre-state. There is a shift and there's an after. And we wanna feel that change, you know, the, the seesaw fulcrum up, down feeling. We want that. So to do that, it starts globally. Um, and you're looking for what are those, you know, what's the, what's the shift, what's, what am I going for? What is that feeling that I want the reader to have at the end, at the last page? And then, and then it always, it's kind of just becomes running those scenarios, you know, the little sequence in your mind of what each moment in the story. It's that same thing. How do I want the reader to feel right now? How do I want them to feel at the end of this scene? How do I want them to feel, you know, at the beginning of the scene? Well, what happened in the last scene? Like, just that everything is connected and it's nothing in a story can be, um, it's not a vacuum. Like it can't be looked at in isolation. Like you can, but the context is never in isolation. It's always connected to everything else. So I think it's, um, you know, it starts early and it's something that it doesn't actually matter. Um, if you haven't thought of it until now, like it's never too late to start thinking about those things, right? Um, and you can go back and set all that stuff up. So I think just having an intention and just that awareness, right? Like the fact that everyone, you know, all of the, everyone in that worked on this film, New the vision of like, this is what we're trying to do. And it's named so explicitly. Um, and so there's an interesting tension between, uh, the planning of a thing, the execution of a thing and the creative, um, bubbling up of a thing, that inception thing that just happens that you can't specifically articulate or you can't really explain how it happens. You just have an idea, right? You just have like some, a happy accident that works. Like something that you're like, oh, I just wrote my way in. I just pants my way through that scene. Wow. I landed on something super cool. Like it's never just one thing, right? Like all of those elements have to happen. So it's just, it's interesting to, um, Let all the phases of, of development and all the phases of creation and writing happen, not make any of them wrong. Saturate yourself in whatever phase you're in. And then also not be afraid to go, okay, cool, I'm gonna, we did that. I'm gonna go look at this other thing. I'm gonna listen to Alice's podcast about value shifts, and I'm gonna very intentionally look at what do I have, what exists, what did I want to exist like?

Track 1: 1:36:58

And I, I love all of that. And what I started thinking as you were saying that is every piece of this scene and this movie are crafted very, very intentionally. And that didn't happen on the first draft. This is not a one draft movie,

Kim: 1:37:14

That's, that's, that's it. That's exactly it.

Track 1: 1:37:18

so, In order to create a scene like this, you get multiple passes where you discover the next layer within each pass. So you discover, okay, so these are the actions that are gonna happen. And then you discover, okay, this is the place in the story where this is happening and what we need to happen within the context of this story. And then you discover, oh, that's where he was coming from in order to get here. And then you discover, oh, that's the emotion that he's gonna feel here. And then you discover these are the things, the messages he needs to hear in order to go through this, this progression. So all of these elements that we just discussed were intentional choices made through many, many iterations of creating

Kim: 1:37:55

Right. Once they got really clear about what they wanted, needed it, and wanted it to do, that's how you know what to actually pick in the end, right? You had to, but yeah, you have to experience it. Oh, that didn't work. That was you. We have to go through miles's exact transformation of failure first and then go what? Wait, there's more in there. There's spark. I can't do it wrong. Like all of those feelings. It's the, that's why it, you know, the story is so meta and nerdy, but like, it's, it's so epic to see him go through that and go, that's exactly what you're doing. That's exactly what you're doing as a writer. You have to, it's okay. Fail on every scene probably 8,000 times and then you're like, aha, I've got it. And then

Track 1: 1:38:37

Yep. And then the

Kim: 1:38:38

Fit Baby Web, slingers,

Track 1: 1:38:40

then they hit the top of the building and you swing off into the sunset and everything is great.

Kim: 1:38:46

And Alice is like, your scene is perfect. I have nothing to say. Onward next,

Track 1: 1:38:51

that is I think, the great aspiration of all my clients. When can I send this to, and she'll just not give me feedback on it. She'll just sign off and say it's perfect. Um,

Kim: 1:39:01

Yeah, I'm fine with it.

Track 1: 1:39:02

Maybe, Maybe, that'll happen. Feel free to test me, uh, So that is a fabulous note for us to wrap up on. Thank you so much, Kim, for joining me in this conversation. This kind of stuff is so fun. I love getting into the weeds at story analysis like this, so thank you for jumping

Kim: 1:39:21

Absolutely. My pleasure.

1:39:23

So there you go. Kim's and my deep dive analysis of the leap of faith seen from Spider-Man. This scene is a moment of triumph. The point where miles transforms his complete failure into true self-actualization and every choice the creators made from the value shifts to the progression of events, to even the colors on the screen. Contribute to the emotional experience that we have as viewers, it all makes us feel miles is triumph. Right along with him. It gives me chills. Yes. Even after watching the scene, probably two dozen times or more over the last month. I still get chills from the scene. It's that good? You can create scenes in your novels that give readers chills like that too. You can create stories that stands up this well to this kind of scrutiny. And I hope that you do. If you haven't yet, I recommend listening to episode 33 of your next draft. Next. That's where I'll give you actionable strategies to edit your scenes in such a way that you can capture emotion this powerfully in your writing. You can find that episode@alycesouthern.com slash 33. And if you enjoyed hearing from Kim in this episode, be sure to find her online. Her website is Kimber kessler.com. And of course you can find that link in the show notes too. And every month she does a free live editing workshop where you can get on zoom with her and workshop, any writing or editing challenge that you're facing. She's awesome. And I know that you'll love getting her feedback on your story. And that's it for this episode. Well, I'm sure there is so much more that I could say about Spider-Man. I'm going to go ahead and hang up the spidey suit for a little while, at least two. And the next week on the podcast for something completely different. And until then, Happy editing.